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Technique question - Working on back side when dial and hands attached

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So I'm working my casing up a naked movement.  Making TONS of mistakes.  Just ordered my THIRD cheap Chinese 2824 clone movement thanks to screw-ups rendering the first two non-functional.

Thank God for cheap Chinese clone movements.

Anyway, my question is this:

When I have the dial and hands attached, I then wind the movement and let it run overnight so that I can make sure that the hands don't rub on each other, or hit the dial's attached indices.  Then I want to turn the movement over, move the click and release mainspring tension, then remove the stem so that I can put the movement in the case.

So I take the movement off of the movement holder (dedicated 11 1/2 linge movement holder, best $15 bucks I ever spent on eBay) and... then what?  Is it safe to put a running movement face down on a case cushion?  If not, then do I just skip releasing he click all together, and let the movement run down for however many hours it takes?  Even with the movement not running, would it THEN be safe to put the movement face down on a cushion with the dial and hands still attached?  Of will I rink damaging the hands/scratching the dial?

Some stuff you just can't learn on your own.  Thank God for the internet.

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No no no! Hands are too much delicate to push on the cushion while working on the back, they can change inclination, bend, scratch dial.

Use a universal movement holder big enough to embrace dial rim BUT take care to not strong or the dial could deform.

Have a nice journey, I know it could be a little bit frustrating but perseverance is the only way to satisfaction!

Inviato dal mio VOG-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

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What is the purpose of dispowering?  

Disengaged stem can stay in the movement, so long as you hold the stem pointing up, the movement would not fall off.

There is nothing wrong with putting the movement on the palm of your hand( clean glove) face up and lower the case over the movement. 

Regards

 

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I use some a plastic movement holder to rest the movement on when putting it back into the case . As for removing the stem and crown. No need to release the spring tension in the MS .  You can hold the movement in your fingers . But use some gloves or finger cots . https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watch-pocketwatch-movement-case-holders-12-plastic-rings-repairs-watchmaker/192779150533?hash=item2ce28864c5:g:dF4AAOSwQqZcLi6F

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If you’re handy you might be able to replicate this handy tool. Rolex make a “casing up” movement holder. It has a pin to engage the stem release and a bump to grab a notch in the movement so it locks in. You never need to flip the movement or case upside down. Horia make them too: https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Stem-pusher/Tool-for-removing-stem-for-cal-ETA-2824-2.html

52f966e253a3ba411a09eaaf4bb2f323.jpgb2a25dc60c707a8c4c1212c4a5987cfb.jpg

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Wow that's such a cool idea, I'm guessing it would be different for each movement. Even if its the same diameter a Miyota stem release pin is not going to be in the same position as a ETA ???

 

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Wow that's such a cool idea, I'm guessing it would be different for each movement. Even if its the same diameter a Miyota stem release pin is not going to be in the same position as a ETA ???
 


Yes, unfortunately it’s a movement specific solution but I’m a bit of a tool fanatic so I don’t mind a tool for every task (within reason)

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4 minutes ago, Narcissus said:

Yes, unfortunately it’s a movement specific solution but I’m a bit of a tool fanatic so I don’t mind a tool for every task (within reason)

agreed and an excuse to make more stuff with my 3D Printer ;-)

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I wonder if you could use a crystal press die with the proper diameter to just fit the outer edge of the dial?  The danger would be having it move around too much and catching the tips of the minute and/or second hands.

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On 4/23/2019 at 1:06 PM, Narcissus said:

If you’re handy you might be able to replicate this handy tool. Rolex make a “casing up” movement holder. It has a pin to engage the stem release and a bump to grab a notch in the movement so it locks in. You never need to flip the movement or case upside down. Horia make them too: https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Stem-pusher/Tool-for-removing-stem-for-cal-ETA-2824-2.html

52f966e253a3ba411a09eaaf4bb2f323.jpgb2a25dc60c707a8c4c1212c4a5987cfb.jpg

This would be an incredibly easy 3D print. It would need to be measured movement specific and you'd have to melt in a pin or similar for the setting lever release but very much like the 3D printed movement holders I design for myself.

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No need to let the mainspring down before removing the stem or replacing the movement in its case.

No need to let it run overnight to determine if the hands rub on each other. Just pull the crown all the way out and gently spin the hands for 12 hours. Let the seconds hand tick on for a minute on its own to make sure it doesn’t bump into the minute hand.

Once I’ve attached the hands to the dial, I flip the movement on the movement holder (Bergeon 4040) and remove the stem. That is, I let the movement holder hold on to the dial. I sometimes place a bit of plastic film (the kind you use to protect food) between the movement holder and the dial. Never had any problems with scratching the dial or scraping off lume.

Finally, I place the movement on a watch case cushion dial-up, place the case over the movement, hold on to the cushion and the case and flip them over, replace the stem and the case back lid. You can see it here.

Yes, good thing there are cheap Chinese clones, but if you truly want to save money, I recommend practising with the Vostok 24XX movements. Just incredible value for money!

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27 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

No need to let the mainspring down before removing the stem or replacing the movement in its case.

No need to let it run overnight to determine if the hands rub on each other. Just pull the crown all the way out and gently spin the hands for 12 hours. Let the seconds hand tick on for a minute on its own to make sure it doesn’t bump into the minute hand.

Once I’ve attached the hands to the dial, I flip the movement on the movement holder (Bergeon 4040) and remove the stem. That is, I let the movement holder hold on to the dial. I sometimes place a bit of plastic film (the kind you use to protect food) between the movement holder and the dial. Never had any problems with scratching the dial or scraping off lume.

Finally, I place the movement on a watch case cushion dial-up, place the case over the movement, hold on to the cushion and the case and flip them over, replace the stem and the case back lid. You can see it here.

Yes, good thing there are cheap Chinese clones, but if you truly want to save money, I recommend practising with the Vostok 24XX movements. Just incredible value for money!

Please add " in both clock and counterclock direction" as you spin the hands.:geek: hands may rub in counterclock direction.

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23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Please add " in both clock and counterclock direction" as you spin the hands.:geek: hands may rub in counterclock direction.

Spinning the hands counterclockwise is generally not a good idea as it can potentially damage the movement. So be very, very careful if you feel that you need to do this. I try to avoid it as much as I can.

Edited by VWatchie

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5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Spinning the hands counterclockwise is generally not a good idea as it can potentially damage the movement. So be very, very careful if you feel that you need to do this. I try to avoid it as much as I can.

That's a myth. Knowing how the setting works we that doesn't care for the direction you move except for the calendar (when there's one), going backward around midnight. In this case, on the Seiko withe -and I'm sure on most other modern mov'ts- there is a design protection in the form of the day/date fingers being flexible (entire wheel is plastic), and shaped so to retract when acting (backward) the date spring.


The same protection intervenes on another classic don't-do-that: quick setting date around midnight. See in my modest video

 

And, a couple of curious features of  the effects of setting time counter-clockwise on the non-hacking Seiko mov't. (of course if the mov'm hacks, the train is stopped when setting time no matter the direction).
First, it can be used as poor man's hacking to align the minute and seconds hand. Winding must be quite down for this to work.
Second, on some units only, if you insist enough with setting backward in short pulses, you could be able to get the entire train moving in reverse for something like 15, 20 seconds, maybe more. I suppose it has to do with the tightness of the cannon pinion and the micro geometry of the escapement. 

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6 hours ago, jdm said:

Being her we are watch repairers, or at least aspire to become.And we need to understand well what we work on.
So when faced with canned statements like that be prepared to ask or research: why?

I'd suggest, knowing how hand setting works, friction slippage of the cannon pinion via the keyless works it would be logical to say it's a risk unless you have an urgent need to turn the hands in reverse then don't, I tell people it's bad practise and I do know people who've damaged watches by doing so harshly.

Even referencing this.

7 hours ago, jdm said:

 

 

First, it can be used as poor man's hacking to align the minute and seconds hand. Winding must be quite down for this to work.
Second, on some units only, if you insist enough with setting backward in short pulses, you could be able to get the entire train moving in reverse for something like 15, 20 seconds, maybe more. I suppose it has to do with the tightness of the cannon pinion and the micro geometry of the escapement. 

Specifically the 'secondly' part, if you can stop and make a movement run backwards you know that can't be good, it's simply not designed to do that.

The 'first' point however is valid when done carefully and something I use with non hacking movements as I'm pernickety with time setting.

Vostok are a bugbear because their instruction manuals tell you to use the back and forth 'quick date setting' shortcut but, yet again. I've known people with Vostok watches damage them by doing this. (Typically it's when done roughly or snapping from forward to back) but better not to do it I think.

 

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9 minutes ago, m1ks said:

I'd suggest, knowing how hand setting works, friction slippage of the cannon pinion via the keyless works it would be logical to say it's a risk unless you have an urgent need to turn the hands in reverse then don't, I tell people it's bad practise and I do know people who've damaged watches by doing so harshly.

What was damaged exactly, and why? Excluding non-hacking, reversing Seiko and Vostok calendars ?

Minute wheel turns one revolution per minute pretty slow I'd say. If the cannon pinion is turned in that direction, or against it will make no difference. Friction there is mainly affected by the speed the crown is turned to set time, the good advice is to do that slowly, not scare people from setting back time when DST change.

 

 

Edited by jdm

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41 minutes ago, jdm said:

Minute wheel turns one revolution per minute pretty slow I'd say. If the cannon pinion is turned in that direction, or against it will make no difference. Friction there is mainly affected by the speed the crown is turned to set time, the good advice is to do that slowly, not scare people from setting back time when DST change.

To reiterate.. when setting time the minute wheel is turning only on mechanical non hacking mov'ts or quartz where stem does not cut battery. That leaves only the calendar to be affected but on good designs is protected as shown above. 

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7
1 hour ago, m1ks said:

I'd suggest, knowing how hand setting works, friction slippage of the cannon pinion via the keyless works it would be logical to say it's a risk unless you have an urgent need to turn the hands in reverse then don't, I tell people it's bad practise and I do know people who've damaged watches by doing so harshly.

Even referencing this.

Specifically the 'secondly' part, if you can stop and make a movement run backwards you know that can't be good, it's simply not designed to do that.

The 'first' point however is valid when done carefully and something I use with non hacking movements as I'm pernickety with time setting.

Vostok are a bugbear because their instruction manuals tell you to use the back and forth 'quick date setting' shortcut but, yet again. I've known people with Vostok watches damage them by doing this. (Typically it's when done roughly or snapping from forward to back) but better not to do it I think.

 

I think Mark explains it very clearly in the video I referred to, so I'm still reluctant to set the time in an anticlockwise direction if I can avoid it. A few minutes and gently is OK, but not for several hours.

 

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11 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I think Mark explains it very clearly in the video I referred to, so I'm still reluctant to set the time in an anticlockwise direction if I can avoid it. A few minutes and gently is OK, but not for several hours.

As always Mark does a stellar job in explaining and showing how things works, so let's analyze what he says:

 7:20 If the watch has a second hand you can observe this.
He's referring to a non-hacking mechanism, like many Seiko or older Swiss, or even a vintage with no seconds. I have explained above twice that hacking mov't, like the 2824-2 that you have recently presented, "hacks" and stop the train when setting time.

7:30 this is not a good thing for any watch mov't
I'll have to disagree on the word any in this sentence, I think he used it to make a generic safe statement.

Particularly I'd be interested in his opinion of the most practical use of setting time backward, after correcting a slightly fast watch: setting for DST end:

Set time backward one hour (or 30 min in some places)
--or--
Set time forward 23 hours
Where applicable, quick-set date/day.
If that took longer, adjust time again.

He's welcome to comment .. in his forum :)

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Slightly fast is not 30 minutes or 1 hour.

I stand by my opinion that it's bad practise and I will advise anyone that generally speaking it is bad practise.

Like telling someone you can shut a PC down by unplugging the socket, sure you can and it 'might' be OK but it 'might cause damage.

Why drive the train, escape wheel and pallet fork backwards and cause a backlash in your balance wheel and risk your impulse jewel and pivots.

Train and escape wheel pivots were damaged respectively in the previous mentioned post, admittedly they were less sturdy and less solidly constructed cheap Chinese movements but....

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