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Darak

Deviations on timegrapher measurements

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Hi, try to understand why the deviation of my timegrapher measurements are so big on both of my Seiko watches, both of them are one to two months old, one is a 7S36C movement, another one is a 6R15D movement, both have 22~26 s/d deviations(see photo).

I start looking into the most obvious, the hairspring seems not working right on both of my watches, or this is normal for Seiko movements? in the slow-motion video, you can see one side of the hairspring contract more than another side.

So I decided to take apart my 7S36C movement, I’m not a watchmaker, but I’m very interested to learn watchmaking, I downloaded the 7S36C technical guide from Seiko, learned how to take the hairspring out, and the hairspring looks just fine and no sag on the spring, so I assemble the watch back and regulate it, the slow-motion videos are taken after the assembly, you can see the watch works just fine.

So, does this look right to you? thanks for your time.

 

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Very good pic and video, and congratulations on your first balance refitting. There is nothing to complain about the hairsping, raw timegrapher data including amplitude, position deviation or anything else. For completeness post a timegrapher picture next time, as you test more watches you will see that even if running fine, not all present an equally clean pattern on the instrument. But when they do one is even more pleased, as I was with the divers which I prepared for sale yesterday.

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Jdm, 

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll try to include timegrapher screenshots in my next timegrapher report, and yes, you are right on, my pattern is not very clean, and the 7S36C is worst then 6R15D, I’ll try to make a report after work tomorrow, if you have some time, please take a look tomorrow, thanks.

 

Darak

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Since you're there caring for your new Seikos. If you observe the "Second reduction wheel", that is the one the paws of the magic level grab, as well the stem, you will likely notice they are absolutely clean of any lubricant, but in fact some goes there, as shown on the technical guide. Personally I don't have the original Seiko products but replace with Moebius 8301 and 9104 respectively. You will need to clean around with Rodico after lubricating the wheel. Also one tiny drop of 9010 on the race bearing won't hurt. These are the most accessible oiling steps that Seiko neglects to execute at manufacture.

BTW, most forum members like to introduce themselves in the dedicated section.

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Jdm,

 

Thanks for the tip, I’m getting S-4, S-6 and 9010 from Esslinger Watchmaker tools, just got some Swiss made tweezers from them a few days ago, and yes, I do realize there’s no grease on the 0514 183 second reduction wheel on both movements, it should covered in S-6, go figure.

 

Ok, I’ll go there and introduce myself, thanks.

 

Darak

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As mentioned above having a certain positional error is normal, as specified in the technical guide. 

You can try to reduce it by adjusting the regulator pin (etachron type), but don't expect too much from a flat hairspring mov.t of this class. More consistency cost a lot more money. 

I suspect that on average the watch is a bit slow, but it is only you that can tell, wearing it normally over a week or so. A good tecnique is to find the best position to rest it at night. That was commonly done in the times when only mechanical watches were available. 

 

 

 

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Jdm,

 

Thanks for the reply, yes, it's running a bit slow now, need to adjust that soon, if your statement is true, I think some deviations are acceptable, normally my watches are facing dial-up position during the night, because they are in a watch box, so I guess I’ll put more weight in the dial-up position in my next watch regulations.

 

Darak

 

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Jdm,
 
I made a timegrapher report today, please take a look, thanks.
 
Darak
Timegrapher Report 04152019 SARX055.pdf

Hello Darak. Thanks for taking the time and effort with the report. Can I ask what method you used to lubricate the upper and lower balance jewels?

I have a few favourite watches depending on whether I’m working or doing sport. For work I am chained to a desk most of the day and estimated that the best possible position to time the watch is 6oclock up tilted 45 degrees through the 3-9 o’clock axis. Try it out yourself and see if it suits you

Regards Deggsie


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3 hours ago, Deggsie said:


Hello Darak. Thanks for taking the time and effort with the report. Can I ask what method you used to lubricate the upper and lower balance jewels?

I have a few favourite watches depending on whether I’m working or doing sport. For work I am chained to a desk most of the day and estimated that the best possible position to time the watch is 6oclock up tilted 45 degrees through the 3-9 o’clock axis. Try it out yourself and see if it suits you

Regards Deggsie


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Hi Deggsie,

 

I didn't lubricate my lower balance jewels, I just took it apart and put it back, I don't have a watch part cleaning machine or any oiler tools yet, and thanks for your tips, that's very helpful.

 

Darak

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Hi Deggsie,
 
I didn't lubricate my lower balance jewels, I just took it apart and put it back, I don't have a watch part cleaning machine or any oiler tools yet, and thanks for your tips, that's very helpful.
 
Darak

Hi Darak. Thanks for the reply. I think when you properly clean and correctly lubricate the upper/lower balance jewels you will see better results - not such a big difference in s/day when the watch is moved to the various positions. I usually check and record dial up, dial down, 6up, 3up, 9up and 12up. You’ll need to remove the watch from the microphone clamp and turn it over to get all readings. Retrospectively, lubrication technique is more important than the lubricant when learning. Don’t rush out and buy too many. As a guide, just a dot of moebius 8000 on your thumb nail will do the whole watch. That’s how little you need. If you are using a lot more, question where it’s going. Only oil the face of the ‘exit’ pallet stone and never the pallet pivots unless you find specific instructions from the manufacturer to say otherwise. An ultrasonic cleaner will be a low cost high gain addition to your toolkit. Don’t waste time and money trying to learn on cheap junk movements, it is likely they were rubbish when new and you’ll tear your hair out wondering why you cannot get them to run well. AS and ETA are nice, but watch out as it’s difficult to buy spares such as hair springs for some of the older models. Kind regards, Deggsie


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3 minutes ago, Deggsie said:


Hi Darak. Thanks for the reply. I think when you properly clean and correctly lubricate the upper/lower balance jewels you will see better results

In my experience Seiko never fails to correctly lubricate the balance stones at production, even if other points can be deficient as noted above. No idea about the pallet stones as I don't have a microscope to observe that. For these, 9515 would be better that 9010, although in my simple approach I use the latter only.

Quote

An ultrasonic cleaner will be a low cost high gain addition to your toolkit.

I disagree with that, after having an u/s cleaner that broke on me, I find no real advantage in u/s cleaning. Before that was available, parts were cleaned anyway and amazing pieces made and services to perfection.

Quote

Don’t waste time and money trying to learn on cheap junk movements, it is likely they were rubbish when new and you’ll tear your hair out wondering why you cannot get them to run well.

That is quite a new concept, "practice on fine pieces because the cheap one may get you disappointed"? 
The focus in learning should be about developing dexterity, using the correct techniques and fully understand how parts typically function and behave when manipulated. Not going for quick satisfying results on valuable pieces.
So, my vote goes to getting cheap old Swiss, or Seiko, or new Chinese, depending on student's preferences. 

To this effect the OP going to his own nice watches right away has been a risk taking, but so far he managed to do good. I'd recommend anyway he gets a neglected Seiko 5 to further practice, simply because skill developing is based on repetition, and repeated manipulation is detrimental to a mov.t.

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Don’t waste time and money trying to learn on cheap junk movements, it is likely they were rubbish when new and you’ll tear your hair out wondering why you cannot get them to run well.

I would say that is true only up to a point. The really junky Hong Kong pin levers and the like are indeed likely to be junk, and parts are not likely to be available.

However a lot of other "junk" watches, from humble Timexs right through to high end Swiss movements can actually be picked up for pennies, and are in my opinion ideal, if you are only buying "junk" watches to practice on.

I wouldn't however buy bare movements, i.e. movements with no case, but rather, whole watches, since you may be able to restore these to a wearable condition. 

I have a fairly large collection of "junk", in my "404 club" collection, and I would estimate that around 90% or more of the "junk" I have bought, I repaired. As a result I have quite a lot of interesting pieces, some of which are probably rare, or indeed in some cases almost unique.

The remainder of the watches that I have not managed to  repair are either missing some vital parts, because someone previously cherry picked the movement before selling it, or are sufficiently low volume/rare/cheap that the parts are extremely difficult to find.

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19 hours ago, Deggsie said:


Hi Darak. Thanks for the reply. I think when you properly clean and correctly lubricate the upper/lower balance jewels you will see better results - not such a big difference in s/day when the watch is moved to the various positions. I usually check and record dial up, dial down, 6up, 3up, 9up and 12up. You’ll need to remove the watch from the microphone clamp and turn it over to get all readings. Retrospectively, lubrication technique is more important than the lubricant when learning. Don’t rush out and buy too many. As a guide, just a dot of moebius 8000 on your thumb nail will do the whole watch. That’s how little you need. If you are using a lot more, question where it’s going. Only oil the face of the ‘exit’ pallet stone and never the pallet pivots unless you find specific instructions from the manufacturer to say otherwise. An ultrasonic cleaner will be a low cost high gain addition to your toolkit. Don’t waste time and money trying to learn on cheap junk movements, it is likely they were rubbish when new and you’ll tear your hair out wondering why you cannot get them to run well. AS and ETA are nice, but watch out as it’s difficult to buy spares such as hair springs for some of the older models. Kind regards, Deggsie


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Hi Deggsie,

 

Thanks for the long reply, a lot of information, I do appreciate that, I have some Rodico and an old ultrasonic cleaner, I don't have the cleaning solution yet, so I think I'll just use Rodico to clean the balance stones, and I also have 9010 and Bergeon oiler, so I can oil the stones, it will be a new achievement for me, never done this before, looking forward to that.

And yes, I always measure in six positions, and every time I change positions, I'll take it off and move the watch around, but this makes me think, some watchmaker uses auto timegrapher, means the timegrapher will move between positions by itself, does this means take the watch off and move it around is not necessary? 

"Don’t waste time trying to learn on cheap movements", I heard you, but I'm very new to this watchmaking hobby, even I can do very very tiny electronic SMD hand soldering, it doesn't mean I want to risk myself or a friend expensive timepiece, still need to train my dexterity ,new techniques and confidence, and I just got a visit from the screw-up fairy a few days ago, by using the wrong screwdriver on the wrong job, just got a new set of Bergeon after that, hope it won't happen again.

 

DarakC0376ACE-A469-4C28-AFCC-7FD5843A4A62.thumb.jpeg.d4e9c3b7500feaefcf3c55e1931a82f3.jpeg

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19 hours ago, jdm said:

In my experience Seiko never fails to correctly lubricate the balance stones at production, even if other points can be deficient as noted above. No idea about the pallet stones as I don't have a microscope to observe that. For these, 9515 would be better that 9010, although in my simple approach I use the latter only.

I disagree with that, after having an u/s cleaner that broke on me, I find no real advantage in u/s cleaning. Before that was available, parts were cleaned anyway and amazing pieces made and services to perfection.

That is quite a new concept, "practice on fine pieces because the cheap one may get you disappointed"? 
The focus in learning should be about developing dexterity, using the correct techniques and fully understand how parts typically function and behave when manipulated. Not going for quick satisfying results on valuable pieces.
So, my vote goes to getting cheap old Swiss, or Seiko, or new Chinese, depending on student's preferences. 

To this effect the OP going to his own nice watches right away has been a risk taking, but so far he managed to do good. I'd recommend anyway he gets a neglected Seiko 5 to further practice, simply because skill developing is based on repetition, and repeated manipulation is detrimental to a mov.t.

Hi Jdm,

 

Thanks for the reply, I agree with you on developing dexterity, correct techniques and confidence on a more affordable piece, I'm still a long way from that, also building up my tools on the way, I do enjoy that, it's an expensive hobby for sure, but it's very very rewarding, and thanks for the encouragement, I'm not working on my nice Seiko SARX055 just yet, only regulate it, but I took apart my Seiko 5 for sure, and I'll continue work on it to build more confidence.

 

Darak

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20 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I would say that is true only up to a point. The really junky Hong Kong pin levers and the like are indeed likely to be junk, and parts are not likely to be available.

However a lot of other "junk" watches, from humble Timexs right through to high end Swiss movements can actually be picked up for pennies, and are in my opinion ideal, if you are only buying "junk" watches to practice on.

I wouldn't however buy bare movements, i.e. movements with no case, but rather, whole watches, since you may be able to restore these to a wearable condition. 

I have a fairly large collection of "junk", in my "404 club" collection, and I would estimate that around 90% or more of the "junk" I have bought, I repaired. As a result I have quite a lot of interesting pieces, some of which are probably rare, or indeed in some cases almost unique.

The remainder of the watches that I have not managed to  repair are either missing some vital parts, because someone previously cherry picked the movement before selling it, or are sufficiently low volume/rare/cheap that the parts are extremely difficult to find.

Hi AndyHull,

 

That's a very interesting point, while I'm still learning about the basic stuff, I'll keep an eye out for affordable timepieces to buy and try to work on it, thanks for the tip.

 

Darak 

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3 hours ago, Darak said:

it's an expensive hobby for sure

Not even that much expensive, the two more costly tools I have are a 5700 bench case opener and a pressure tester (both Chinese knock-off), they are like $200 each, guess what I rarely use them now. That doesn't buy a good camera body, or a medium-high smartphone,  or 5 dinners for 2.

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