Bent hairspring

[Lc130]

This is a Bifora 115.  I accidentally snagged the the hairspring with tweezers.  I believe that the highlighted area is now bent??  Balance now swings slowly if at all.  I've watched Mark's videos on straightening HS.  Though I'm a beginner and never attempted this.  Any advice is appreciated.

 

[nickelsilver]

For bends in the round the correction is always made 90 degrees from the problem area. In the pic below you can see the kink, blue arrow, which is actually 90 degrees from the maximum out of round. If you bring the spring back toward the staff there you will already be very close to good.

Edited April 11, 2019 by nickelsilver

[AndyHull]

Tricky... I would say.. gently grip at "A" with a pair of fine nosed pliers and gently massage opposite "B" (with a pin, needle, very thin screwdriver or a second pair of pliers) to push bend in the direction of "B", rinse, repeat until all of the coils are evenly spaced and concentric once more.

I'm slightly suspicious that all is not quite correct at "C" too, but I could be wrong.
 

I tend to perform this kind of gentle hairspring tickling with the balance in the watch, but the more professional method involves poising the balance on a special tool designed for this, which allows better access all round the hairspring. .

Be careful, patient and observe the results of each manipulation, so that you can see what even the smallest of tweaks does to the whole hairspring. I have spaghetti-iesd many hairsprings in my youth, so I have a bit of a feel for what is involved, but you will need patience, good magnification, good light, and a steady hand... and even more patience.

[AndyHull]

I'd go with @nickelsilver's solution. I think he may have better understood the easiest solution than I have.

[nickelsilver]

I'll add that you'll want the regulator out of the way when adjusting, or take the spring off the balance and remount to cock, then it's easy to see when you've got the collet centered over the jewel and also the the regulating curve matches the arc of the regulator.

[Lc130]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

For bends in the round the correction is always made 90 degrees from the problem area. In the pic below you can see the kink, blue arrow, which is actually 90 degrees from the maximum out of round. If you bring the spring back toward the staff there you will already be very close to good.

I'm trying to use Mark's video as a guide.  Where would I grip and where and in what direction would I push?  Thank you.

 

[nickelsilver]

With fine tweezers grab it just to the right of the blue arrow the from the left push toward the jewel.

[Asmobrat]

You need to take apart the spring from the wheel first. Because the spring is out of shape. It have to be round centered on the wheel pivot. It needs excessive care and patience... I personally do that with no removing the spring from the cock...  Only taking apart the wheel...  

Then, you just rub the spring very gently until to see the center on the hole.  After many little touching and rubbing  the spring, you finally will realize true sides of touches to make it centered. Then slightly harden your touches in the right direction to take the spring in shape. Not in one time.... slightly increase the power of your touches in many times... At least this was my first beginner method...  It's been so useful for me. 

Unfortunately, Only watching the videos is not enough to achieve it...  You have always to take a risk as a beginner... Just have steady hands, well tweezers, patience and a good vision.... 

Good luck !... 

[Deggsie]

The correction which will make the maximum effect will be adjacent to the stud. That will pull the coils concentric about the staff, enough so to allow the balance to run again. Don’t remove the Hs from the staff unless your competent to reinstall and reset the beat. This looks much worse than it is. Don’t be too keen to rush in, just a gentle tweak at the stud will fix it.


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[Lc130]

 

I'm fairly certain that I made it worse.  Any ideas for correcting it.  I'm lost.  Current state is pictured below.

This is a Bifora 115/1.  If I have to replace it and assuming I can't get a donor , Cousins lists parts for "115" and "115.1"

For 115.1 they have "Balance Complete, Ordinary, Bifora 115 721"

For 115 they list the above and "Balance Complete, Shockproof, Bifora 115 721.1"

Are either of these the correct part and what constitutes "complete"?

Thank you

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Lc   Looks pretty bad . best thing to to is remove the spring from the balance and the balance from the cock lay the spring on the cock centered over the jewel hole then carefully stroke the spring back into the round removing the kinks as you go. Its a time consuming job care and patience are the watch word.   In the case of Balance complete, It comprises of the balance wheel with balance spring fitted and timed complete with stud ready to attach to the balance cock  and put into the movement. No adjustments needed other than slipping it into the regulator. Might be the quickest option.

[Deggsie]

Hi Lc   Looks pretty bad . best thing to to is remove the spring from the balance and the balance from the cock lay the spring on the cock centered over the jewel hole then carefully stroke the spring back into the round removing the kinks as you go. Its a time consuming job care and patience are the watch word.   In the case of Balance complete, It comprises of the balance wheel with balance spring fitted and timed complete with stud ready to attach to the balance cock  and put into the movement. No adjustments needed other than slipping it into the regulator. Might be the quickest option.

Agree with the above, but in my limited experience playing around with damaged hairsprings, I get best results if the hairspring is removed from the balance staff. Then lay on a sheet of white paper. Sharpen your tweezers really fine. Take time, and come back to the job every 15minutes. Don’t be keen to finish in one go. When the damaged areas are teased back into form, keep laying the hairspring onto the cock and make final adjustments to the stud area so that it is perfectly concentric. Also pay attention to keeping the stud upright, of not it’ll push the hairspring out of flat when reinstalled into the cock. Take your time. Good luck


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[AndyHull]

Quote

I'm fairly certain that I made it worse...

That is in the nature of the game. Experience only comes from practice. I actually don't think it is that bad. I have certainly seen a lot worse, that have been salvageable.

There is a slight art to this. Try to imagine what will happen to the whole spring, if you straighten a particular part. Now try to imagine what will happen to the whole spring if you increase the bend on that same part. You have to understand that every change affects the whole geometry. This is why it is sometimes easier to remove the spring and work on a piece of paper.

I tend to work with the balance in the watch, but there are no hard and fast rules to this, other than to be patient, take your time,  think carefully before you make a change, and use good magnification and good light. Some people use a couple of pins, others use tweezers, I've heard of people using sewing needles with the end of the eye ground away to turn them in to a two pronged fork. Whatever you use though, gently does it, and don't panic if you make a wrong move, just figure out what you did wrong and carefully undo it.

What have you got to loose other than a bit of your spare time? After all the thing is already broken.

Edited May 3, 2019 by AndyHull

[vinn3]

some  watch repair books  show to re bend  this spring.  

[Nucejoe]

Dispite teaching his students daily, I think Nickelsilver has long forgotten what it was like as a bigginer, though this is a case of simple manipulation. HS removal offers many advantages,You can see the coils shape on a white piece of paper, that helps to evaluate where you are and where you need to get. The shape you see is the acutal, under no stress, unrestraint.No matter how well you manipulate on the BW, the impulse pin always ends up out of beat. You have access to infinate angle of attacks, further plennty of space at all angles of attack. Direct access and so on.

Members may eventually all get skilled enough to get any descent results through on wheel manipulation. That is PhD level to me.

 

 

[Deggsie]

I'm fairly certain that I made it worse...

 

I've heard of people using sewing needles with the end of the eye ground away to turn them in to a two pronged fork.

 

Nice idea [emoji106] I’m going to make up a selection of size and give this method a go.

 

 

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[AndyHull]

I've not tried the sewing needle trick myself, I suspect you will need to solder/epoxy the needle in to some kind of holder to give you a solid grip.  You might be able to adapt them to fit in a screwdriver handle, but that might prove too bulky and cumbersome to be practical.

Let us know what you come up with.

[watchweasol]

I made a set of these using large eye darning needles  fitted into some dowel rod, the eye end is then stoned untill a fork is achieved then clean up the end before using they are usefull  for manipulating  the hair spring. like everything use carefully.

[Lc130]

It's the time of year when my day job work slows and I'm able to resume learning.  Still not had a go at that HS and wanted to buy another.  The movement is a bifora 115/1.  Ranfft describes the /1 as "suffix /1: lever banking by cock instead pins"

Cousins lists parts for 115 and 115.1. Is point one the same as slash one?

under 115.1 they have "Balance Complete, Ordinary, Bifora 115 721"

under 115 they list these below

Which is the needed part?

Thank you

Charlie

[ITProDad]

Tricky... I would say.. gently grip at "A" with a pair of fine nosed pliers and gently massage opposite "B" (with a pin, needle, very thin screwdriver or a second pair of pliers) to push bend in the direction of "B", rinse, repeat until all of the coils are evenly spaced and concentric once more.

I'm slightly suspicious that all is not quite correct at "C" too, but I could be wrong.
 
I tend to perform this kind of gentle hairspring tickling with the balance in the watch, but the more professional method involves poising the balance on a special tool designed for this, which allows better access all round the hairspring. .
Be careful, patient and observe the results of each manipulation, so that you can see what even the smallest of tweaks does to the whole hairspring. I have spaghetti-iesd many hairsprings in my youth, so I have a bit of a feel for what is involved, but you will need patience, good magnification, good light, and a steady hand... and even more patience.

PLIERS?


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[ITProDad]

Tricky... I would say.. gently grip at "A" with a pair of fine nosed pliers and gently massage opposite "B" (with a pin, needle, very thin screwdriver or a second pair of pliers) to push bend in the direction of "B", rinse, repeat until all of the coils are evenly spaced and concentric once more.

I'm slightly suspicious that all is not quite correct at "C" too, but I could be wrong.
 
I tend to perform this kind of gentle hairspring tickling with the balance in the watch, but the more professional method involves poising the balance on a special tool designed for this, which allows better access all round the hairspring. .
Be careful, patient and observe the results of each manipulation, so that you can see what even the smallest of tweaks does to the whole hairspring. I have spaghetti-iesd many hairsprings in my youth, so I have a bit of a feel for what is involved, but you will need patience, good magnification, good light, and a steady hand... and even more patience.

PLIERS?


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[AndyHull]

2 minutes ago, ITProDad said:

PLIERS?
 

.. and a claw hammer. But only after you have tried everything else.

[praezis]

That result was not so surprising after all the confusing advice given. Nickelsilver gave the exact position for correction and also explained the simple rule that applies here. Unfortunately later comments confused the clear advice.

Nevertheless I hope this story ends well - with new balance assembly 

Frank

[vinn3]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 8:04 AM, AndyHull said:

Tricky... I would say.. gently grip at "A" with a pair of fine nosed pliers and gently massage opposite "B" (with a pin, needle, very thin screwdriver or a second pair of pliers) to push bend in the direction of "B", rinse, repeat until all of the coils are evenly spaced and concentric once more.

I'm slightly suspicious that all is not quite correct at "C" too, but I could be wrong.
 

I tend to perform this kind of gentle hairspring tickling with the balance in the watch, but the more professional method involves poising the balance on a special tool designed for this, which allows better access all round the hairspring. .

Be careful, patient and observe the results of each manipulation, so that you can see what even the smallest of tweaks does to the whole hairspring. I have spaghetti-iesd many hairsprings in my youth, so I have a bit of a feel for what is involved, but you will need patience, good magnification, good light, and a steady hand... and even more patience.

   de Carle's book shows how to re-shape the hair spring and "timeing"    vin

[vinn3]

15 hours ago, ITProDad said:

 

 

PLIERS?


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   yes, and spring makers "rounding pliers" - " and whatever works".  vin