Seiko 6119 runs slow after service.

[Baird]

Hey all. 

So I recently picked up a 6119 Seiko with a case in great shape, but the movement wasn't great.  It barely ran and wouldn't wind correctly.   So I took it apart to find that someone else had been in it.  The mainspring barrel wasn't even closed correctly and there was oil all over the place.   After a thorough cleaning and re-oiling, the watch runs and winds correctly, but the timegrapher is all over the place, almost as though the mainspring installed is way too strong.  Also, it runs about 20-40 minutes slow a day even when adjusted all the way to the +.  

Could it be that it has the incorrect mainspring?  Is that plausible?  I took it apart and redid it twice thinking maybe I missed something on the initial service, but the result was the same.  Also, I can't seem to find a factory mainspring for this movement.  I'm a novice hobbyist at all of this, so I am unsure of how to calculate or find specs that I would need for a generic mainspring.  It may not be that, but I just can't find anything else wrong with it.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Nucejoe]

Yes, This mainspring can be the wrong one.

Genuine seiko MS are said to have gone extinct, though you can find ones for sale on ebay advet  as NOS gen. Dosn,t say genuine just gen, which could very well stand for generic.

Your watch should run fast  if  it,s  mainspring  is strong.

How do you know it winds well or full. The fault can be insufficient power. 

How long dose it run, on what you presume to be full wind?

Spindle may slip inside the barrel and discharge power or auto winder may fail to wind  beyound some point.

I normally suggest giving it a good wind, manually through the ratchet wheel and note how long it runs and listen close for the sound of possible power discharge as you wind. We then have more data and can decide to right course.

Regards

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  Tech sheet PDF enclosed 401-615 mainspring is now obsolete (cousinsuk).  Nucejoe is on the mark check that the spring is not slipping and loosing power, remove balance and fork apply a bit of power, do the train wheels spin and backrun at the end, sounds like a power problem.

3106_Seiko 6119A.pdf

[Baird]

Yes, This mainspring can be the wrong one.
Genuine seiko MS are said to have gone extinct, though you can find ones for sale on ebay advet  as NOS gen. Dosn,t say genuine just gen, which could very well stand for generic.
Your watch should run fast  if  it,s  mainspring  is strong.
How do you know it winds well or full. The fault can be insufficient power. 
How long dose it run, on what you presume to be full wind?
Spindle may slip inside the barrel and discharge power or auto winder may fail to wind  beyound some point.
I normally suggest giving it a good wind, manually through the ratchet wheel and note how long it runs and listen close for the sound of possible power discharge as you wind. We then have more data and can decide to right course.
Regards
 

I did wind it with the ratchet wheel at first. I didn’t note how long it ran but I definitely know it was running at least 24 hrs later.


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[Baird]

Hi  Tech sheet PDF enclosed 401-615 mainspring is now obsolete (cousinsuk).  Nucejoe is on the mark check that the spring is not slipping and loosing power, remove balance and fork apply a bit of power, do the train wheels spin and backrun at the end, sounds like a power problem.
3106_Seiko 6119A.pdf

I don’t recall them doing that but I will do so and check. Thanks.


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[Barnaby]

A lot of the Seikos don't backrun- I think the 6119 is one of them IIRC.

I use the GR25341x mainspring (Cousins have them) in the 6119, 6139 etc.

Also, I read somewhere that the rate of the watch is often inversely correlated with the amplitude- i.e. low amplitude= faster rate and vice versa. An over-powered mainspring would cause I higher amplitude (I think?), hence a slower rate. Would be good to hear others' thoughts on this...

[Baird]

A lot of the Seikos don't backrun- I think the 6119 is one of them IIRC.
I use the GR25341x mainspring (Cousins have them) in the 6119, 6139 etc.
Also, I read somewhere that the rate of the watch is often inversely correlated with the amplitude- i.e. low amplitude= faster rate and vice versa. An over-powered mainspring would cause I higher amplitude (I think?), hence a slower rate. Would be good to hear others' thoughts on this...

Interesting. I had a chance to sit down with it today and I didn’t see any backrun. Also, it looks like the balance is barely swinging which normally would make me think it’s going to run out of control fast. But sure enough, it’s running slow still. Could it be a hairspring issue? I made sure to demagnetize just to be sure, and the balance swings freely. I can’t see anything wrong with it.


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[tritto]

Cousins is listing the GR2534x as a substitute - 1.05x.115x420x10.5. More expensive (£16.50) than they're selling the GR25341x suggested above (£7.95). They appear to have the same dimensions.

 

 

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[saswatch88]

7 hours ago, Baird said:

 

Interesting. I had a chance to sit down with it today and I didn’t see any backrun. Also, it looks like the balance is barely swinging which normally would make me think it’s going to run out of control fast. But sure enough, it’s running slow still. Could it be a hairspring issue? I made sure to demagnetize just to be sure, and the balance swings freely. I can’t see anything wrong with it.


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OK what jumps out at me here is two things: someone else was in the watch, and barrel cover was barely on

so maybe the last person put the wrong size mainspring in the watch which is why the lid opened. if the mainspring is too wide then it will be rubbing up against the barrel lid which will cause a huge loss in power. you dont need an OEM spring you can find an aftermarket if you dont know size and type you can get a mainspring gauge and look at the chart on ofrei for end style.

[Nucejoe]

10 hours ago, Barnaby said:

A lot of the Seikos don't backrun- I think the 6119 is one of them IIRC.

I use the GR25341x mainspring (Cousins have them) in the 6119, 6139 etc.

Also, I read somewhere that the rate of the watch is often inversely correlated with the amplitude- i.e. low amplitude= faster rate and vice versa. An over-powered mainspring would cause I higher amplitude (I think?), hence a slower rate. Would be good to hear others' thoughts on this...

Is seiko 6119 movement the one with metal hole instead of stones jewels, on gear train bridge? 

That thing not only dose backrun it wnot even forth ran, I got one, ended up installing a bridge out of 6139 that comes with stone jewels, run real good now. 

[Nucejoe]

11 hours ago, Barnaby said:

A lot of the Seikos don't backrun- I think the 6119 is one of them IIRC.

I use the GR25341x mainspring (Cousins have them) in the 6119, 6139 etc.

Also, I read somewhere that the rate of the watch is often inversely correlated with the amplitude- i.e. low amplitude= faster rate and vice versa. An over-powered mainspring would cause I higher amplitude (I think?), hence a slower rate. Would be good to hear others' thoughts on this...

Sorry. 

[Baird]

Is seiko 6119 movement the one with metal hole instead of stones jewels, on gear train bridge? 
That thing not only dose backrun it wnot even forth ran, I got one, ended up installing a bridge out of 6139 that comes with stone jewels, run real good now. 

This one has jewels.

I think I’m going to try the mainspring route next and see what happens.


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[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Baird said:

 

This one has jewels.

I think I’m going to try the mainspring route next and see what happens.


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Good idea, proper MS and barrel greasing. Enhancement. !!

[Baird]

So I bought the mainspring from cousins. Still slow. I swear I think I’m missing something. An obstruction or something worn.
Thanks for the advice though everyone.


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[saswatch88]

1 hour ago, Baird said:

So I bought the mainspring from cousins. Still slow. I swear I think I’m missing something. An obstruction or something worn.
Thanks for the advice though everyone.


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did you grease the barrel? did you regulate the watch?

if you did properly then there can be a piece of dirt or debris hiding somewhere slowing everything down