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saswatch88

ANOTHER mind boggling escapement issue!

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ok here we go:

i have two of the same exact movement, caliber and make, waltham 1907 6/0 size. iam having the same issue with both of them. i took them apart cleaned and oiled them. mainspring is good in both. when i put the pallet fork in and wind the watch, iam not getting the snapping back and forth action from the pallet. if i operate it manually it spins the escape wheel just fine. when i take it out the train unwinds and its very smooth and i even get the little wind back at the end so i knowwww its not a mainspring problem, and i swapped pallets and pallet cocks in every combo possible and iam getting the same result in both movements. The pallet jewels are fine no chips or loose jewels. I really dont get it, i have never had this issue. 

as i said if i operate the pallet lever with tweezers and move them back and forth the escape wheel turns, but the pallet will not snap by itself. what in the world could the issue be. The fact that its happening in both movements using different but same parts makes it even more of a mystery. any ideas????

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I may not be fully understanding the scenario here but that sounds like a perfectly healthy movement.

The main force for flicking the pallet fork back and forth is provided by the balance wheel. The escape wheel will play a part in keeping the balance moving. The balance, in effect, is providing similar motive force to what you are doing with your tweezers.

Anilv

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24 minutes ago, anilv said:

I may not be fully understanding the scenario here but that sounds like a perfectly healthy movement.

The main force for flicking the pallet fork back and forth is provided by the balance wheel. The escape wheel will play a part in keeping the balance moving. The balance, in effect, is providing similar motive force to what you are doing with your tweezers.

Anilv

all correct but remember it the force of the mainspring which travels through the train up to the escape wheel then to the pallet which powers the balance although the balance keeps the watch running. i always like to think of the mainspring as the transmission and the balance as the motor. 

anyway i cranked the mainspring up even more and i finally got it to spin but it dies out quickly in certain positions i dont believe there is and end skake problem the blance spins very nice and straight when installed by itself. thinking maybe mainspring is too weak and needs to be changed anyone agree

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Mainspring or any gear in power train, reachable, can be pushed ( supplied with energy) to observe ths effect. 

Impulse pin returns enregy to the fork for pallets to snap. As anvil put it (for better understanding) impulse pin dose what you with tweezers.

Are you SURE impulse pins are in beat? 

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yes i checked all this i finally got the pallet to snap back and forth and finally got it running but it stops immediately on dial up. i think there something with the jewels. as i said i have two of the same movements and on the one both balances are too tight and the other it just stops on dial up with both balances. i really hate escapement work, its so tedious and seems impossible to figure out the exact problem and a solid solution

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Two of the same movement is excellent tool for elimination process.:thumbsu: and lets you produce more data. Profitable tool rather than just inexpense.

Both balance are two tight on one. So end shake tells you more, if none, you obviously should think in terms of increasing the distance between lower and upper jewels. Some folks shim,  the jewel assembly and shock system may let you do so by moving the jewels or housings or flip the end stone over to face domed side of end stone with the pivot. 

I presume walthams of that era had no shock spring. Moving the jewles should be such that no part touches another that it is not suppose to. Balance wheel, HS, impulse pin, fork , all that is there.

Awaiting news from you.

Regards

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Hi
You seem to have done Everything by the book this far. One just have to remain calm and focused while fault finding.

The first part you managed to do fine, this includes to check the function of the drivetrain. When it runs nice and smoothly when you make a couple of turns on the Winding it should be okay. When checking a pocket Watch make sure to include the escape Wheel at this stage. If you have any faulty gears with teeth missing it shows up at this stage.

The second check is to put the palletfork back, just make sure you cleaned the pivots and the jewels on the palletfork. make sure they look nice and are firmly attached and free from dirt, inspect the horns and the guard pin. When in Place gently move the palletfork back and forth with a pegwood and observe the action of the  pallet fork and escapement Wheel. You seem to have done this part too and one can say all is good so far and just concentrate on part Three.

The third part is not tricky either. It includes checking the jewels for the balance Wheel. Mostly on these older pocketwatches you don't have any shock absorbing system. This makes the jewels the balance pivots runs in extra sensitive. You have to look at these with a high magnification on the lupe or use a microscope. These are most often the culpit when it comes to faults you describe.
If they look crispy without cracks you go to the next part, check the balance pivots, at this stage you make sure they are not broken off or extensivly worn. Next check the impulse jewel or pin, check it is straight, firmly in Place and Clean.
Next you check the hairspring, look with high magnification so there are no dirt or oil at all  on it, put the balance complete in a small plastic zipbag and demagnitize it. Oil the balance jewels and put the balance assembly into Place. Gently move the balance up and down to check the end shake, do the same pulling it toward and away from you to check the side shake. It shoulnd't move more tha a couple of hundreds of a millimeter.

If Everything is okay it should start to oscillate when you wind it up, even if the mainspring is weak you should get some action but with reduced amplitude. If it doesn´t go into beat at this stage and you are 100% you checked of the previous stages the fault mostly is in the position of the impulse jewel/pin. You can observe this by gently with a pegwood  moving the balance Wheel back and forth, just be carefull not poking on the hairspring.

If the movement still aren't ticking after done this procedure you could take a Movie and post it here.

 

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"couple of hundreds of a millimeter" thats what drives me nuts how can you tell just by moving the balance with tweezers that it is the measurement of shakes you are getting? Pallet and roller jewels are good, and pivots look straight i even polished them on levin pivot polisher, bottom jewel looks good but iam thinking its the jewel on the balance cock it looks like it has a crack in it, as far as the other movement goes i didnt get to that one yet. i really need to invest in one of those lcd microscopes this 15x eye loop does no justice. well at this point i need a new balance for the other movement because i dont have a seitz kit and in order to replace these jewels i also need a jewel setting kit which they are go for 100+ on ebay and they are hard to come by complete since they are usually pre 1940. You have to spread the metal out to remove the jewel then close it back up. Jewel changing is something i have not gotten into yet, the equipment is expensive and normally i will just get another movement and swap and replace parts until i get one to work. another weird aspect of these old waltham/elgin movements is that on some grades even though same model the pallet fork will have the safety pin on the top sticking straight up, and i noticed on one movement it was bent down a bit probably from last guy trying to install it, and the roller jewel kept rubbing against it, but sadly not the case here

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Ok, why don,t you just loosen the cock screw in fourth of a turn incerments up to a full  turn even a bit more, The tight balance should loosen and run. You always have the shimming option.please don,t dig a canion under the balance bridge.:lol: 

Now that you have rolled up sleeves,  I get one going. Rubbed in jewels are not so neat to replace. 

I best go hide myself:roadrage:

Joe

 

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You can feel the end shake, or observe the wheel with refernce to something there, be it the mainplate, fork bridge, roller against lower jewel, sometimes if there are end stones push on the stone a bit and observe if stops or affects the wheel's speed  and  push on the cock if there are no end stones. Different approachs depending on the piece.

Regards

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Did you test end shake of the pallet arbor? If it is very slightly clamped by the cock, you will get what you described.

A free pallet fork shall fall from one side to the other by its own weight if you turn the movement. Best tested without balance wheel and esc wheel.

Frank

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ok here we go:
i have two of the same exact movement, caliber and make, waltham 1907 6/0 size. iam having the same issue with both of them. i took them apart cleaned and oiled them. mainspring is good in both. when i put the pallet fork in and wind the watch, iam not getting the snapping back and forth action from the pallet. if i operate it manually it spins the escape wheel just fine. when i take it out the train unwinds and its very smooth and i even get the little wind back at the end so i knowwww its not a mainspring problem, and i swapped pallets and pallet cocks in every combo possible and iam getting the same result in both movements. The pallet jewels are fine no chips or loose jewels. I really dont get it, i have never had this issue. 
as i said if i operate the pallet lever with tweezers and move them back and forth the escape wheel turns, but the pallet will not snap by itself. what in the world could the issue be. The fact that its happening in both movements using different but same parts makes it even more of a mystery. any ideas????

Try lubricating the pallet jewels or the feet on the escapement. Sounds like the jewels will not release (lock/unlock). You need a special type oil, looks like a yellow jell


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He got the pallets snap and runing but stops dial up. 

We got at least one pallet do the snap  , I take it the same movement stop dial up.

I don,t see how we came to oil pallets.Which one got the tight balance wheel. 

 I am baffled where we are . :o

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

ok here we go:

i have two of the same exact movement, caliber and make, waltham 1907 6/0 size. iam having the same issue with both of them. i took them apart cleaned and oiled them. mainspring is good in both. when i put the pallet fork in and wind the watch, iam not getting the snapping back and forth action from the pallet. if i operate it manually it spins the escape wheel just fine. when i take it out the train unwinds and its very smooth and i even get the little wind back at the end so i knowwww its not a mainspring problem, and i swapped pallets and pallet cocks in every combo possible and iam getting the same result in both movements. The pallet jewels are fine no chips or loose jewels. I really dont get it, i have never had this issue. 

as i said if i operate the pallet lever with tweezers and move them back and forth the escape wheel turns, but the pallet will not snap by itself. what in the world could the issue be. The fact that its happening in both movements using different but same parts makes it even more of a mystery. any ideas????

     keep up the good work !    check the balance cock and staff end shake.  vin

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Reading jdrichrds advice woke me up, I and saswatch may be going down different roads. Thank you jd.

I came out of hiding saswatch, sorry, sorry.:lol:

So will you tell about the one with good jewel. PLEASE.

 

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Reading jdrichrds advice woke me up, I and saswatch may be going down different roads. Thank you jd.
I came out of hiding saswatch, sorry, sorry.
So will you tell about the one with good jewel. PLEASE.
 

Could be a lucky guess. Plus if you have wear on the lower pivot of the balance staff and you turn the watch face down, the balance safety roller table may be interfearing with the pallet fork.

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Actually this would be true with dial down...in your case the impulse jewel may be loose and with dial up, may not be contacting the palate fork properly if the upper pivot is worn or the upper jewel is cracked allowing the whole balance and staff to move upward towards the balance cock.

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12 hours ago, praezis said:

Did you test end shake of the pallet arbor? If it is very slightly clamped by the cock, you will get what you described.

A free pallet fork shall fall from one side to the other by its own weight if you turn the movement. Best tested without balance wheel and esc wheel.

Frank

i believe this was the issue at first and i fixed it. but now balance stops on dial side up. come to think of it jrichard i noticed a coning at the bottom of the upper balance pivot, i know this is normal but this looked different and this was from the balance that was original to the movement the other balance looks better but still stops.

Nuce joe as far as other movement goes that is very tight i lifted the cock a bit but did it wayyyy too much now the balance is all over the place, and laxy me tried to do it with balance installed and i think i bent the pivot, so thats one is finished it was one of those moments when you realize that you knew that was going happen before you did it but did it anyway and cant figure out why.

also how do you shim a balance, never really tried it. what do you use? also i would never gouge the plate.

 

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i believe this was the issue at first and i fixed it. but now balance stops on dial side up. come to think of it jrichard i noticed a coning at the bottom of the upper balance pivot, i know this is normal but this looked different and this was from the balance that was original to the movement the other balance looks better but still stops.
Nuce joe as far as other movement goes that is very tight i lifted the cock a bit but did it wayyyy too much now the balance is all over the place, and laxy me tried to do it with balance installed and i think i bent the pivot, so thats one is finished it was one of those moments when you realize that you knew that was going happen before you did it but did it anyway and cant figure out why.
also how do you shim a balance, never really tried it. what do you use? also i would never gouge the plate.
 

Just place watch paper under the balance cock if you need to shim it. Folder over once our twice. Use tweezers to hold the paper in place while you install the balance.


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4 hours ago, jdrichard said:


Just place watch paper under the balance cock if you need to shim it. Folder over once our twice. Use tweezers to hold the paper in place while you install the balance.


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ah ok watch paper i also heard you can use a dial washer.

Edited by saswatch88

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Thin aluminum foil, sourced from chocolate, candy, medicarions wrap like tablets, come in various thinkness. I rins, cut a piece into shapes I need, like a cm long a mm wide. The cock need not be removed, just loosen the screw two turns, wigle the cock loose to get a gap between cock- mainplate about .5 mm , insert the foil, thighten, check the end shake. Alter the length of foil you inset in/out and its position under the cock to lower or raise the cock as you wish. Choose a position where, the BW is tight, just about to be let free by half turn more of the cock screw. Mark shows the final screw tightening in a video.

Advantages are, incredibly high percision results. No gouge ing, 

Regards

 

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Tight BW indicates end stones may be pushing on pivots or even jewels on pivot shoulders.     Therefore  " loosening the cock screw in fourth of a turn increments up to two turns"  is somewhat of a test checking for this.

If there is a end shake yet the wheel is tight or not as free as it should be,  bent pivot or broken jewel are possible fault.

If pivot jump out of jewel hole, loose or faulty shock springs, worn short pivots or excess distance between upper/ lower jewels perhaps even broken jewels are the likely causes.

 

 

 

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ah ok watch paper i also heard you can use a dial washer.

Use a small square piece of watch paper and use a razor blade to trim the leftovers. I have done this a few times when I have made a balance staff and was very concerned about taking too much material off the pivots, so I would just add a bit of watch paper and raise the balance cock just a miniscule amount. Try to keep the paper flat so you don't put an angel on the balance cock and thus cause an angle on the upper jewel. Also, the two alignment studs for seating the balance cock will punch thru the watch paper, unless you can place the piece between them; either is ok.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

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29 minutes ago, jdrichard said:


Use a small square piece of watch paper and use a razor blade to trim the leftovers. I have done this a few times when I have made a balance staff and was very concerned about taking too much material off the pivots, so I would just add a bit of watch paper and raise the balance cock just a miniscule amount. Try to keep the paper flat so you don't put an angel on the balance cock and thus cause an angle on the upper jewel. Also, the two alignment studs for seating the balance cock will punch thru the watch paper, unless you can place the piece between them; either is ok.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
 

Yes important.  No angel on the cock and stone, Shimming if unlevel renders the jewel  tilted. I prefer using pieces and leave alignment pins alone,  have seen pins coming out, pieces of paper pressed in with the pins, grip the pins , causing it to come out as bridge is later removed. Repeated,  this caused wear around  the hole the pin enters in. Very important indeed. A true horologist services each piece as if the most expensive one.

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