Am I MAD to buy this?

[JimmyD]

I just bought this from eBay, a crazy moment, it cost me AU$300 (about 170 quid) Anyway as things have gone a bit quite on the clock threads I thought I would put this up. I have not received it yet so some of the things that may be wrong with it are to come. I see a few issues with the face, movement and music . Dates are the obvious one a bit of an mismatch, however might get some of you interested as I think the list is going to be long.   

When I get the clock I will post more photos as I find the issues.

[2131tom]

Not mad, better to say courageous. 

I'm not an expert, but I'd say it was an early 19C, fairly standard, 30-hour chain-driven longcase movement with striker and repeat. The base parts of the dial have some quality but the 3 silvered inserts (silent/repeat etc.) are all over the place, in terms of the font sizes and styles, which I'm afraid looks very amateurish.  Neither of the hands are original.  I have no idea how the 'music' side of things marries up to the clock but there are obviously plenty of bits to fit in there :-)

Good luck - I'll be following progress with great interest.

[oldhippy]

What is the size of the dial 10 or 12 inch?

[Bod]

Good luck!

I shall follow this with interest.

 

Bod

[Squiffything]

Gotta watch this one, looks like it might be a bit of fun. 

[yankeedog]

Are You Mad ? Quite obviously you are !But it's OK...Thanks to you a piece of history will not be lost.

[oldhippy]

In a nut shell it’s a complete bodge up.

[JimmyD]

The dial is 12 inch, and did not start life with the movement, if you look at the back of the faceplate you can see where the posts that attached to the original movement have been cut and newer posts have been added to fit the present movement, waste of a good dial. The movement looks like it has been made to fit the music, however till I get it I can't say, The music looks younger than the movement and has patrs of the cast iron needing fixed. Time line, well the dial looks to be around 1740, the movement maybe sometime before 1800 and the music well I don't know much about this, however maybe 1880? Anyway I thought that it may be fun to see if I can get it all to work. If I manage to get it to work I will just make a frame to hold it all together, there is no way it will ever get back into a case!   

[oldhippy]

That dial over a period has been made up. Musical Long case 30 hour clocks of the 1740 never existed.  Like I said in a nut shell it’s a complete bodge up. It is worthless. 

[Squiffything]

To a purist it may not ever be the true clock it once was but it has age, it was altered to produce what it is and was probably done from parts that the maker had. I wouldn’t say it’s worthless and it’ll be interesting to see what you make from it. 

I looked at a number of skeleton clocks today made from old Smiths movements that had little value. Yet the seller had done a good job of making them look great. Priced way to much in my opinion but maybe not considering the work put in and if he sells them then good for him.

[JimmyD]

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

That dial over a period has been made up. Musical Long case 30 hour clocks of the 1740 never existed.  Like I said in a nut shell it’s a complete bodge up. It is worthless. 

Why do you think the dial is not around the 1740's. is it because it is a 12 inch dial and not a 10 inch? These sizes are guides to dating not hard facts. The spandrels are from around 1700 to 1740 , the engraving around the date and matting in the centre looks to be from around the same period as does the chapter ring, none of these look to be added when viewing the back of the plate.

As for being worthless, I did not buy this to make money, like many here I bought it for the fun of trying to fix it up and get some satisfaction at doing so. If I wanted to make money I could just buy a totally original clock that has been wreaked and repair the case, movement and French polish it, however that is no challenge or fun. 

 

 

[oldhippy]

This dial would be very expensive in its time to make. Longcase clock dials in the 1700 period with subsidiary dials would not be in demand. It became more popular in the later part of the 1700 around 1770. Only small subsidiary dials for a small second hand and the hand design would be very simple.   No name on the dial for starters automatically makes me wonder, because a dial like this should have a name. I am thinking this is an apprentice piece and made with the financial help of parents.  The further away from the capital of clock making which was London. The more you are going to be behind with the latest design in what customers want. So you are right in what the dial contains, it is just a guide. I don’t believe for one minute this dial was attached to a movement of such a design. It is more likely to have been sold to a customer who just wanted a Longcase without any fuss fitted with hour hand and minute hand.  This makes me think it comes from south of London. It has a plain-silvered chapter ring and the dial is made out of a single sheet of thin brass. This dial comes from the South of England. It has been altered by means of removing the original movement posts, they have been butchered, a hole drilled in the dial so the minute wheel pokes through. The minute hand does not match the hour hand. The hour hand dates about 1700 to 1740 it was used around the provinces. The spandrels are from the same time as the hour hand.

The musical bits and pieces have nothing what so ever to do with the clock.  

[JimmyD]

I agree with what you say, the name missing, well there is a hole at the bottom of the dial just above the chapter ring that could have had a name attached to it. My view is that the dial had the movement added around the same time as the music was added, maybe around 1880 or later. It looks like a homemade job, however the person must have had some skill to convert the movement. The 3 small chapter rings are shocking and I will make better ones, I will make a new minute hand if I can't find a match on eBay and also a new selection hand or maybe 2 as the 2 there now look to be different sizes. Anyway it should keep me busy for a while. I will post a rundown of all the issues when the clock arrives as it is hard to tell what needs to be done and if any of the parts are missing from the music.

This is what fascinates me about clocks, around 1740 somebody made a dial, around 1800 somebody made a movement, around 1880 somebody made a musical movement, then somebody else took all these and put them all together for whatever reason, I wonder who they all were and how it found its way to Tasmania around 1200 miles from the UK.

[JimmyD]

I might make a name to attach to the dial, "The Heinz Clock" as it almost has 57 varieties.  

[Squiffything]

Any progress on this one Jimmy? 

[JimmyD]

I have taken it to the workshop and done the movement, I ran out of battery on my camera so only 2 photos, however I will get them up soon. The music, well that is a few weeks away before I get into working out how it was set up.

[Squiffything]

Keep us posted for me it’s interesting to see how a professional does things.

[JimmyD]

An update on the Heinz clock, The movement needed some work, however is running fine now, I have now worked out how it all went together and set it up on a temp board. The music cylinder is stuffed, however I have found a good one and should have it soon, just more work to convert it to fit. I will also have to rebush all the music parts and some are big bushes set in cast iron. It has 2 worm cogs and they are in good nick as is all the others. The fly need some work also however that is the last thing I will do. The person that made this had some skill as it was not a factory that produced it as I have never seen one like it before. I would say now that I have it that it was converted around 1880 to1900. I like it though something different!

[AndyHull]

Have you figured our what tune it should play?

[Squiffything]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Have you figured our what tune it should play?

Got to be tie me kangaroo down sport!

I’ll get me coat......

[Squiffything]

That is an amazing looking thing. Keep up the good work and the posting. I wouldn’t mind seeing how you deal with the big bushings when you get to that bit. Everyone loves a big bush. 

[JimmyD]

6 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Have you figured our what tune it should play?

The tunes are on the small left chapter ring in the 1st few photos, however the cylinder has to many pins broken and flatend to make it sound any good. It played 4 tunes, the replacement cylinder and comb plays 8 tunes and has no missing teeth. I have to convert it from spring driven to weight driven.

[JimmyD]

3 hours ago, Squiffything said:

Got to be tie me kangaroo down sport!

As long as the replacement does not play God save the Queen, however Scotland the Brave would be nice. Funny enough, this clock started life before Australia was discovered.

 

3 hours ago, Squiffything said:

I wouldn’t mind seeing how you deal with the big bushings when you get to that bit. Everyone loves a big bush.  

Except in Brazil.

I will take photos of the repairs on the music setup, I might have to make some bits also as there seems to be a few bits missing, I don't think Google can help me with what they look like. I did not do photos of the movement as there is enough on the forum and Web already about how to repair a movement anyway I ran out of battery.

[oldhippy]

I don't think it was made before 1644 when Australia was discovered.

[vinn3]

 what the heck!   switch the hammers about and make it "Wall sing Matilda".  vin