AS 1700 issue looks to be the auto winder?

[Lc130]

Hi All

I've been asking lots of beginner questions as I troubleshoot this AS 1700.  Thanks for all the help.

I was getting varying rates and tried removing the auto winder.  Things appear to have improved as seen below;

This is a full wind with the autowinder removed.

This is full wind with the autowinder. Rate and amplitude slowed.

 

Half wind without the autowinder

Half wind with the auto winder

 

Here it is 

This thing below from wheel #3 above has a good amount of shake.  Not sure what's normal.

The above pinion of wheel labeled 3 (don't know proper name) sits in the jewel below and interacts with the adjacent wheel which interacts with the main spring.  

First, are the readings without the winder to be expected?  Any idea how I could troubleshoot the winder?

Thank you!

Edited March 3, 2019 by Lc130

[Lc130]

Anyone?

[Nucejoe]

It is called ,  Ratchet wheel reduction wheel. 

Shows weak MS. Or  poor power transfer to the train

I would service the entire wind and power mech. That is barrel , selfwinder module, rotor assembly, this has no bearing should have no shake.

 

[Nucejoe]

Will you clean and show the reduction wheel lower jewel, looks damaged like this.

[Lc130]

Thank you.  Is this the part you say should have no shake?  It has a good amount of shake.   Is this pivot worn?  I don't know what it should look like.  But if it should have a point, that would explain the shake.  

The reduction wheel pivots also look worn.  What do you think?

 

Many thanks.

[Lc130]

45 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Shows weak MS. Or  poor power transfer to the train

 

Are you referring to the timegrapher with or without the autowinder?  Or, both?

[Nucejoe]

One end of the arbor of the reduction wheel  hangs in the air when uninstalled, so the shake then dosn,t count, when you install the selfwinder the said arbor drops in a jewel on barrel bridge, you wouldn,t want excessive shake in the jewel or the module.

No ball bearing on this rotor, dismantle, check, clean and lube .

Drop in amplitude at half wind is severe, if this drop is persistant in several readings, then it it serious indicating  drop in power, either weak MS or fault in power delivery. Reading with auto winder is worse, shouldn,t differ that much.

Let us see all part clean, MS is a part of service, reversers may need be replaced,we just don,t yet know.check shakes on all arbors in selfwind mech. 

Interesting movement isn,t it.

 

[Lc130]

I applied anti slipping grease to the barrel.  I did not apply lubricating grease to the MS.  Would that cause the drop in amplitude?  

I have trouble with mainsprings and usually destroy them.

[Nucejoe]

 No I dont think greasing the MS itself dose any good. Did you grease barrels bottom plate ? That is where most impedence comes from.the bottom plate should be in good shape.  Are you renewing the MS? 

Clockboy advises use of fixodrop on reversers as they are the muscles of the selfwinder. I do atmost cleaning the reversers, perhaps renewal.

Regards 

 

 

[Klassiker]

Maybe the autowinder is magnetised? the rotor is a big lump of metal. Maybe it only needs to be lightly magnetised to affect the amplitude and thereby the rate (and the beat too, by the looks of it). I can't see how else the autowinder would affect amplitude, as it's on the passive side of the barrel.

[Lc130]

2 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Maybe the autowinder is magnetised? the rotor is a big lump of metal. Maybe it only needs to be lightly magnetised to affect the amplitude and thereby the rate (and the beat too, by the looks of it). I can't see how else the autowinder would affect amplitude, as it's on the passive side of the barrel.

I've tried demagnetizing it.  

[Lc130]

The mainspring is new.

Here's the jewel that the ratchet wheel pinion sits in.  It looks ok to my un-trained eye. I've also added pictures of the other two wheels that the the ratchet interacts with on the main plate.  They also look good.  

The post on the right of the first pic is what the clutch wheel sits on.  It's smooth but looks rough in the picture.

The video shows shake of the center wheel.  I don't know what is normal.

Are there any other troubleshooting steps I should try?

Thank you

 

 

 

 

[watchya]

Hi, your pivots look ok to me here is a pic of my AS1701 auto winder upside down. I've got more jewels than you!

on your video with the centre wheel part that is moving up and down, did you put this centre wheel cock and bridge on with the jewel to hold it in place?  see pic

are you using this original two piece type of ms?  see pic

[watchya]

Hi Lc130, i have just looked at your middle photo the one with the 2 wheels I zoomed right in and I think they look dirty I can see stuff around the teeth. I think you should clean them up and then try again. You have a nice camera there for close ups better than mine.

[Lc130]

33 minutes ago, watchya said:

Hi Lc130, i have just looked at your middle photo the one with the 2 wheels I zoomed right in and I think they look dirty I can see stuff around the teeth. I think you should clean them up and then try again. You have a nice camera there for close ups better than mine.

Thank you for the help. 

Our 1700's are not exactly the same.  The jewel above the third wheel (?) is integral to the plate on mine.  It's not a screw in.

The spring looks different from yours but same as the one replaced.  Its MSS WA 32.

The pics can look dirty but the parts are actually clean.

I'm using a Moment 10x macro lens for iPhone.  Helps when I'm badgering real watchmakers for help!!

 

Charlie

[watchya]

Lc130, did you click the cannon pinion 245 onto the centre wheel 206 ? on your video it looks like the center wheel is not the center wheel and may be the third wheel 210 ? if you have assembled correctly then you need to have a jewelled bearing plate for the second wheel 342 that is held on by a screw to the center wheel cock 126.  If you don't have that then you have a center wheel cock 126 from another movement and will never work properly. A jewel is needed for the sweep second wheel to run smoothly with light oil on. AS1700 does have that jewel.

[watchya]

second thoughts i don't think you have got the wheels mixed up as the second wheel would not  fit at all and i can see that it is in place.

[Lc130]

3 minutes ago, watchya said:

second thoughts i don't think you have got the wheels mixed up as the second wheel would not  fit at all and i can see that it is in place.

Thanks!  I'm so new to this I was wondering if it could be the case.  Any and all comments are appreciated.

Charlie

[Lc130]

To wind this up, it turned out that I over oiled the ratchet and reduction gears in the rotor.

[Nucejoe]

AS1701 came in 30jewels and 25 versions , I think. 

  The axial  play of the third wheel should be adjustable, I don,t think it needs adjustment. A quick check of the center jewel on the other side of mainplate, , no side shake on the center tube.

With the new MS, all cleaned up and lubricated, improved reading on initial ones is expected. Lets keep the autowind out and improve on manual wind ,next lets review what is done so far.

Once satisfied with performance( manual wind) we will more noticably better see performance with autowind.

 

[Marc]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

AS1701 came in 30jewels and 25 versions , I think. 

17, 21, 25, 30, & 41 that I definitely know of. There may well have been more as efforts to boost jewel count were considerable when this movement was in production. 

[Nucejoe]

12 hours ago, Marc said:

17, 21, 25, 30, & 41 that I definitely know of. There may well have been more as efforts to boost jewel count were considerable when this movement was in production. 

I didn,t know 17 and 21 and love to meet the 41 jewels,  love the felsa 4009 a 41 jeweler.