Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

9415 on the pallets

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

[mikepilk]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

I find it difficult to put the correct amount on. So I put on a bit too much, run the movement for a minute, then clean the pallets with some Rodico. 

[manodeoro]

no lubrication of the pallet pivot ... just a tiny drop of 9010 on the exit pallet (when in place) then pass 5 to 10 teeth of the escape wheel by oscillating the fork (using a clean thin watercolor brush that will only serve to this ...to avoid any risk of damaging the fork).

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, manodeoro said:

just a tiny drop of 9010

If you're using 9010 you really should surface treat as it has a habit of spreading with time. Then they do make an oil specific for escapement lubrication 941.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

[manodeoro]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If you're using 9010 you really should surface treat as it has a habit of spreading with time. Then they do make an oil specific for escapement lubrication 941.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

914 of course !!!

Sorry  ... I use 9010 so often that every time I post about oils I automatically type "9010" (just like "8300" if I post about grease).

unfortunately I cant edit my last post so if a moderator can do ...

[Asmobrat]

The pallet pivots are exposed to strengthened pressure on just two directions, so they have no circular movement like wheel pivots... So, lubricating them doesn't so much effect on their performance. But, lubricant may be sticky after a time and this causes excessive friction on the pivot rather than wheels...  Lubricant can also be fully sticked and that prevents the move... 

Lubricating them may be useful on some watches which have high beat rates, i guess...

[saswatch88]

On 3/3/2019 at 5:39 PM, mikepilk said:

I used Moebius 8217 on the barrel wall and 9415 on the pallets.

ever think about trying kluber P125 on the barrel walls. has way better breaking power than 8217.

[Nucejoe]

What about pin pallets themselves? Should lubricate or not? 

How about polishing pin pallets? How to?

[nickelsilver]

What about pin pallets themselves? Should lubricate or not? 
How about polishing pin pallets? How to?

The pins need lubrication. It probably sounds crazy but 8300 is good. Oils don't stay put.

[Nucejoe]

25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

35 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

What about pin pallets themselves? Should lubricate or not? 
How about polishing pin pallets? How to?

The pins need lubrication. It probably sounds crazy but 8300 is good. Oils don't stay put.

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

[nickelsilver]

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

I put it on the impulse faces of the escape wheel teeth (all).

[Asmobrat]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 

I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules...  I don't know how to polish the pin pallets...

Actually it would be better if someone share how to polish the stones, if it's possible...  I need that information too... Because it's the hardest thing to replace the watch stones in watchmaking... 

[jdm]

12 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 
I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

[Asmobrat]

20 minutes ago, jdm said:

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

[jdm]

24 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

[Asmobrat]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

Beyond the recommendations, for the best performance it's always better to examine the performance interaction between the wheels and prefer right viscosity values for each wheels in only attending on viscosity values... And plus i might also need to lubricate the pallet pivots...  İt's not right to choose roughly what recommendations say. But of course most people don't need so complicated examinations but if i had an a.lange söhne watch, i certainly would do that...  

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Thank you very much for understanding... 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Asmobrat

[jdm]

47 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Not at all, a reasoned discussion is key to understand the "why" of things, and that's the best asset in doing hobby or trade.

[yankeedog]

I don't see a problem with oiling the pivots. if you lose a little amplitude, Is it a bad thing? I think there are two ways of looking a watch maintenance . While not being 100% mutually exclusive you can service a watch with longevity in mind or performance.just like any other mechanical device. Great amplitude  looks nice , but it also, I think could contribute to faster wear. The more one surface moves against another, everything else being equal the more friction and wear and possibly greater fatigue on the hairspring.  so if oiling these pivots reduces rotation, Is it a bad thing? 

[JohnR725]

Horological lubrication is quite a fascinating subject. Unlike some things in watch repair that haven’t really changed in the last hundred years horological lubrication seems to always be changing. As this particular discussion demonstrates lubrication of the pallet fork pivots sometimes they do sometimes they don’t. Then the choice of lubrication’s typical responses look at the tech sheet. But the various watch companies typically all have differing recommendations and those recommendations almost always have changed with time.  Then there is the missing information such as surface treatment and other stuff. Or the assumption whoever’s reading a technical guide is a professional watchmaker that knows what they’re doing. Of course we all have our personal choices and thoughts on the subject which very likely could all be different.

The original title of this discussion was lubrication of the pivots the pallet fork that generally is an easy subject in that it’s usually frowned upon at least by the Swiss. Oiling of the rest of the escapement can get quite interesting. This is where time is an interesting thing or when the technical sheets came into existence. For an example of this I pulled out a couple of older Swiss technical guides and the earlier one is recommending 9020 for the pallet stones. A couple years later they switch to 941. Then I don’t remember how many years before 9415 comes into existence but it will show up eventually. Then when it does its typically for the higher frequency watches as it stays in place better. But with time even on lower frequency of 18,000 BPH watches you’ll see either or recommendation. Currently everyone seems to going just to 9415.

So did you think this was confusing at all? Did you wonder what I meant by missing information other than surface treatment? Omega’s an interesting company over the years they’ve had technical information separate from their normal technical guides. Working instruction number 40 is quite interesting for instance it’s on lubrication and I’ve attached the PDF to this message. I think you'll find starting on page 13 quite interesting..

 

 

CousinsUK.com Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication.pdf

[AndyHull]

We discussed this recently, but it is interesting to see in that PDF.

Page 5 Paragrah 3 - Handling of lubricants.

1. Write down the date of receipt of the new lubricants.
2. Change the lubricants every six years.

Now I guess that makes sense, based on the idea of servicing the watch every 5 years. If the shelf life of lubricants is generalized as 5 years, then they will need to be replaced every 5 to 6 years. I guess this will be more a sort of half life than an instantly goes bad at 6 years. As experience tells us, some watches manage to limp along with no change of lubrication for considerably more than 6 years, but best practice suggests that lubricant performance starts to take a hit after 5 years or more.

[mikepilk]

14 hours ago, AndyHull said:

We discussed this recently, but it is interesting to see in that PDF.

Page 5 Paragrah 3 - Handling of lubricants.

1. Write down the date of receipt of the new lubricants.
2. Change the lubricants every six years.

Now I guess that makes sense, based on the idea of servicing the watch every 5 years. If the shelf life of lubricants is generalized as 5 years, then they will need to be replaced every 5 to 6 years. I guess this will be more a sort of half life than an instantly goes bad at 6 years. As experience tells us, some watches manage to limp along with no change of lubrication for considerably more than 6 years, but best practice suggests that lubricant performance starts to take a hit after 5 years or more.

I just received some Moebius 8213 Grease from a 'large UK supplier'. On the label it says : 'Exp 12/2017'.

I haven't used 8213 before, and I know it's a solid grease, but this seems to have set !

It is more like wax, it won't flow at all.

 

[Deggsie]

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.
 

I used to use moebius 8000 and could not believe the difference 9145 made. It is expensive but invaluable. I put just a tiny tiny dot on the exit face only and then let it run for 10 mins to equally distribute onto the escape wheel teeth


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[Asmobrat]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:12 PM, yankeedog said:

 

Ah.. my poor English... 

Sorry....

Edited April 22, 2019 by Asmobrat

[matabog]

 

[Deggsie]

 

I currently do not have the technology required to check to that degree..... but wish I did! It is interesting to see just how very little lubricant is required on the pallet face.

 

 

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