Jump to content

Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.


Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

9415 on the pallets

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

I find it difficult to put the correct amount on. So I put on a bit too much, run the movement for a minute, then clean the pallets with some Rodico. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no lubrication of the pallet pivot ... just a tiny drop of 9010 on the exit pallet (when in place) then pass 5 to 10 teeth of the escape wheel by oscillating the fork (using a clean thin watercolor brush that will only serve to this ...to avoid any risk of damaging the fork).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If you're using 9010 you really should surface treat as it has a habit of spreading with time. Then they do make an oil specific for escapement lubrication 941.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

914 of course !!!

Sorry  ... I use 9010 so often that every time I post about oils I automatically type "9010" (just like "8300" if I post about grease).

unfortunately I cant edit my last post so if a moderator can do ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

The pallet pivots are exposed to strengthened pressure on just two directions, so they have no circular movement like wheel pivots... So, lubricating them doesn't so much effect on their performance. But, lubricant may be sticky after a time and this causes excessive friction on the pivot rather than wheels...  Lubricant can also be fully sticked and that prevents the move... 

Lubricating them may be useful on some watches which have high beat rates, i guess...

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:
35 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:
What about pin pallets themselves? Should lubricate or not? 
How about polishing pin pallets? How to?

The pins need lubrication. It probably sounds crazy but 8300 is good. Oils don't stay put.

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 

I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules...  I don't know how to polish the pin pallets...

Actually it would be better if someone share how to polish the stones, if it's possible...  I need that information too... Because it's the hardest thing to replace the watch stones in watchmaking... 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 
I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, jdm said:

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

Beyond the recommendations, for the best performance it's always better to examine the performance interaction between the wheels and prefer right viscosity values for each wheels in only attending on viscosity values... And plus i might also need to lubricate the pallet pivots...  İt's not right to choose roughly what recommendations say. But of course most people don't need so complicated examinations but if i had an a.lange söhne watch, i certainly would do that...  

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Thank you very much for understanding... 

Edited by Asmobrat
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Not at all, a reasoned discussion is key to understand the "why" of things, and that's the best asset in doing hobby or trade.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see a problem with oiling the pivots. if you lose a little amplitude, Is it a bad thing? I think there are two ways of looking a watch maintenance . While not being 100% mutually exclusive you can service a watch with longevity in mind or performance.just like any other mechanical device. Great amplitude  looks nice , but it also, I think could contribute to faster wear. The more one surface moves against another, everything else being equal the more friction and wear and possibly greater fatigue on the hairspring.  so if oiling these pivots reduces rotation, Is it a bad thing? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horological lubrication is quite a fascinating subject. Unlike some things in watch repair that haven’t really changed in the last hundred years horological lubrication seems to always be changing. As this particular discussion demonstrates lubrication of the pallet fork pivots sometimes they do sometimes they don’t. Then the choice of lubrication’s typical responses look at the tech sheet. But the various watch companies typically all have differing recommendations and those recommendations almost always have changed with time.  Then there is the missing information such as surface treatment and other stuff. Or the assumption whoever’s reading a technical guide is a professional watchmaker that knows what they’re doing. Of course we all have our personal choices and thoughts on the subject which very likely could all be different.

The original title of this discussion was lubrication of the pivots the pallet fork that generally is an easy subject in that it’s usually frowned upon at least by the Swiss. Oiling of the rest of the escapement can get quite interesting. This is where time is an interesting thing or when the technical sheets came into existence. For an example of this I pulled out a couple of older Swiss technical guides and the earlier one is recommending 9020 for the pallet stones. A couple years later they switch to 941. Then I don’t remember how many years before 9415 comes into existence but it will show up eventually. Then when it does its typically for the higher frequency watches as it stays in place better. But with time even on lower frequency of 18,000 BPH watches you’ll see either or recommendation. Currently everyone seems to going just to 9415.

So did you think this was confusing at all? Did you wonder what I meant by missing information other than surface treatment? Omega’s an interesting company over the years they’ve had technical information separate from their normal technical guides. Working instruction number 40 is quite interesting for instance it’s on lubrication and I’ve attached the PDF to this message. I think you'll find starting on page 13 quite interesting..

 

 

CousinsUK.com Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication.pdf

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We discussed this recently, but it is interesting to see in that PDF.

Page 5 Paragrah 3 - Handling of lubricants.

1. Write down the date of receipt of the new lubricants.
2. Change the lubricants every six years.

Now I guess that makes sense, based on the idea of servicing the watch every 5 years. If the shelf life of lubricants is generalized as 5 years, then they will need to be replaced every 5 to 6 years. I guess this will be more a sort of half life than an instantly goes bad at 6 years. As experience tells us, some watches manage to limp along with no change of lubrication for considerably more than 6 years, but best practice suggests that lubricant performance starts to take a hit after 5 years or more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, AndyHull said:

We discussed this recently, but it is interesting to see in that PDF.

Page 5 Paragrah 3 - Handling of lubricants.

1. Write down the date of receipt of the new lubricants.
2. Change the lubricants every six years.

Now I guess that makes sense, based on the idea of servicing the watch every 5 years. If the shelf life of lubricants is generalized as 5 years, then they will need to be replaced every 5 to 6 years. I guess this will be more a sort of half life than an instantly goes bad at 6 years. As experience tells us, some watches manage to limp along with no change of lubrication for considerably more than 6 years, but best practice suggests that lubricant performance starts to take a hit after 5 years or more.

I just received some Moebius 8213 Grease from a 'large UK supplier'. On the label it says 'Exp 12/2017'.

I haven't used 8213 before, and I know it's a solid grease, but this seems to have set !

It is more like wax, it won't flow at all.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.
 

I used to use moebius 8000 and could not believe the difference 9145 made. It is expensive but invaluable. I put just a tiny tiny dot on the exit face only and then let it run for 10 mins to equally distribute onto the escape wheel teeth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Heres my watch of today, a Smith 13'" RY . My missus bought me this for this Valentines day a bargain 14.99 with a reduction, the seller has occasional 20% off offers now and then so it was about 15ish with delivery. I love Smiths and i love bulleye dials, this is my first one. The watch arrived non working as stated and i knew what was inside and what would be against me, but i enjoy a challenge, we dont expect a lot if anything from pin pallet movements. A balance pivot was broken and i didnt have another staff but i did have another RY with a battered dial so i robbed the balance and tweaked it around to make it work apart from that mostly just a good clean and relubrication. Keyless works are pretty rough by design and the crown is a bugger to get in and out with the dial on, the setting lever hits the dial before it releases it, so a little mod is needed to help that along. Major problem was the pins on the lever were quite worn which make the old tg have a snow storm fit. Its a similar read for most pin pallets, these were brass as was the escape wheel. But perseverance is me, i didn't change the pins but i did spend some time dressing and polishing the worn areas which improved the trace a lot with some straightish lines 😅 and a beat error of .5 . Not sure what the lift angle should be on these and i Wasn't in the mood to work it out and who believes timegraphers anyway, but at the default 52° it runs with 260ish full 210 after 24 hours dial down , the verticals rates were pretty much all over place. So lets just put it in it's superlight aluminium case and see what happens. Been wearing it now for 3 weeks and it's consistently losing around 1.5  minutes a week winding each morning i think pretty good for an old pin pallet watch. I just love this dial, thanks wifey heres my Valentine's gift for yer sweetie x
    • I have a PDF below that will help. The problem was the PDF wasn't designed for this purpose it was designed to tell you what size watch you  have. Then it doesn't take into account movements come conceivably in different thicknesses.   watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf
    • That would be something! Which brings me back to;  
    • you think you're going to sleep tonight you're not, you're going to ponder the question of what makes you think those of the right parts?  
    • Does anyone knows what size case a need for a dial diameter 20.60mm?
×
×
  • Create New...