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mikepilk

Oiling pallet pivots - would you ?

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No I wouldn't, but according to Citizen you should.

Rebuilding a Citizen cal 5204, and as there are so many bits (springs, springs, springs !) I downloaded the service manual.

In both the 'General Oiling' section, and the specific movement section, they recommend a touch of oil on the pallet pivots.

Do any other movements recommend this?

I've only done this to curb excessive amplitude.

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I’ve noticed there are Seiko service manuals that call for oiling the pallet pivots as well, ranging from tiny vintage 2517 mov’ts to the recent 7s series. The only reason I’ve ever heard to do this was to suppress over banking

 

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Hi     If it is quoted by the manufacturer then its ok to do so but only with the correct lubricant, again the manufacturers recomended oil, If you have not got that then don't do it . The action of the fork is crucial to the timing and any old oil can make them sluggish affecting the balance aplitude

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It's generally frowned upon to oil the pallet fork pivots. If you put the watch on a timing machine before and after you will usually see a small decrease in amplitude. If with time the lubrication gets more sticky that decrease of amplitude will be more dramatic.

Seiko as mentioned above does recommend oiling the pivots sort of? If you go through their tech sheets sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The other strange thing for Seiko is if you have multiple generations of service sheets even for a particular caliber sometimes they do sometimes they don't and unfortunately they do not explain why.

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17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's generally frowned upon to oil the pallet fork pivots. If you put the watch on a timing machine before and after you will usually see a small decrease in amplitude. If with time the lubrication gets more sticky that decrease of amplitude will be more dramatic.

Seiko as mentioned above does recommend oiling the pivots sort of? If you go through their tech sheets sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The other strange thing for Seiko is if you have multiple generations of service sheets even for a particular caliber sometimes they do sometimes they don't and unfortunately they do not explain why.

I don't want to lose any amplitude - it's only showing about 230 deg with a new mainspring.

Hopefully it will increase a bit after running for a day. 

I know Japanese movements are renowned for low amplitude, but I'm a disappointed to see such low amplitude, especially as the gear train seemed so good - and it's a 33 jewel movement. 

If I don't hit 240 deg I'll take it apart and try to find the problem.

I wonder if the mainspring is slipping too soon, as it does seem easy to wind, and I can't feel any point when the tension builds, and then slips a bit.

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Then when posting amplitude/timing results more than one position is desirable typically one dial position either up or down and a pendant/crown position like crown down.

Up problem with a lot of the watches are the lack of technical documentation. Like for instance what is the lift angle of this watch? I was trying to figure out if there's a base caliber or anything that similar? So the only listing I have a anything close numerically as 5240 and 5250 both of those are 46°. Not a Lot of difference from 52 but it will change things a little bit if yours is similar

Then a lot of watch companies don't worry about the amplitude when it's fully wound up They are more concerned about what it's doing 24 hours later. So while a high amplitude is good a consistent amplitude would be better over at least 24 hours.

How did you oil the pallet stones and which lubrication? Also how Did you lubricate the mainspring and the outer barrel wall?

 

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I know Japanese movements are renowned for low amplitude, but I'm a disappointed to see such low amplitude, especially as the gear train seemed so good - and it's a 33 jewel movement.

 

Renowned for low amplitude compared to Swiss mov’ts with ~300 degrees amp. Too many hobbyists seem to think anything around 200 is ok on Seikos. I personally feel it’s not acceptable to settle for amplitude below the mid 200s on the Japanese makes and apparently you feel the same.

 

I’d go back through and check cleanliness. Peg out everything and pith all the pivots. Check oiling. If pivots are worn significantly you may have to settle for lackluster performance unfortunately as Citizen spares are hard to come by.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then when posting amplitude/timing results more than one position is desirable typically one dial position either up or down and a pendant/crown position like crown down.

Up problem with a lot of the watches are the lack of technical documentation. Like for instance what is the lift angle of this watch? I was trying to figure out if there's a base caliber or anything that similar? So the only listing I have a anything close numerically as 5240 and 5250 both of those are 46°. Not a Lot of difference from 52 but it will change things a little bit if yours is similar

Then a lot of watch companies don't worry about the amplitude when it's fully wound up They are more concerned about what it's doing 24 hours later. So while a high amplitude is good a consistent amplitude would be better over at least 24 hours.

How did you oil the pallet stones and which lubrication? Also how Did you lubricate the mainspring and the outer barrel wall?

 

I used Moebius 8217 on the barrel wall and 9415 on the pallets.

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16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

9415 on the pallets

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

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7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

9415 is an interesting lubrication? It's grease like so it stays in place except on impact where it becomes a very fluid extremely slippery. But if you're trying to get maximum amplitude you have to be careful not to apply too much or you will lose amplitude.

 

I find it difficult to put the correct amount on. So I put on a bit too much, run the movement for a minute, then clean the pallets with some Rodico. 

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no lubrication of the pallet pivot ... just a tiny drop of 9010 on the exit pallet (when in place) then pass 5 to 10 teeth of the escape wheel by oscillating the fork (using a clean thin watercolor brush that will only serve to this ...to avoid any risk of damaging the fork).

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8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If you're using 9010 you really should surface treat as it has a habit of spreading with time. Then they do make an oil specific for escapement lubrication 941.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

914 of course !!!

Sorry  ... I use 9010 so often that every time I post about oils I automatically type "9010" (just like "8300" if I post about grease).

unfortunately I cant edit my last post so if a moderator can do ...

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The pallet pivots are exposed to strengthened pressure on just two directions, so they have no circular movement like wheel pivots... So, lubricating them doesn't so much effect on their performance. But, lubricant may be sticky after a time and this causes excessive friction on the pivot rather than wheels...  Lubricant can also be fully sticked and that prevents the move... 

Lubricating them may be useful on some watches which have high beat rates, i guess...

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25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:
35 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:
What about pin pallets themselves? Should lubricate or not? 
How about polishing pin pallets? How to?

The pins need lubrication. It probably sounds crazy but 8300 is good. Oils don't stay put.

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

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2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, Thank you, will get some, any tips on application?  Regards

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 

I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules...  I don't know how to polish the pin pallets...

Actually it would be better if someone share how to polish the stones, if it's possible...  I need that information too... Because it's the hardest thing to replace the watch stones in watchmaking... 

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12 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

İt's better to lubricate teeth of escape wheel where having contact with pallet stones with a thick lubricant but not grease. I don't know lubricant codes sorry...  in leaving areas with high pressure it's better to use thick oils. 
I am not watch expert i just told this according to physical rules

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

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20 minutes ago, jdm said:

To avoid guessing and mistakes our friendly experts above have mentioned the recommended types. I suggest that you click the link posted by JohnR275. Moebious is the industrious leader and is worth to spend 5 minutes learning on their catalogue.

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

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24 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Well thank you... I just wanted to approach the topic theoretically... And thank god moebius catalogues confirm that...  

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

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1 hour ago, jdm said:

Well, it's even a bit more complicated. If you notice Moebious as well our expert recommend two different types 9415 and 941, even their numbering is very similar. But while the first is classified as a grease, the second is an oil with "remarkable adhesion". So which one to choose? Personal preferences aside, some difference in the application could be in the at which the escape wheel rotates, more speed more centrifugal force and more impacts. You can say that for 28,800 and up "high beats" to use the grease, while for slower moving mov.ts the oil should work fine anyway.

Beyond the recommendations, for the best performance it's always better to examine the performance interaction between the wheels and prefer right viscosity values for each wheels in only attending on viscosity values... And plus i might also need to lubricate the pallet pivots...  İt's not right to choose roughly what recommendations say. But of course most people don't need so complicated examinations but if i had an a.lange söhne watch, i certainly would do that...  

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Thank you very much for understanding... 

Edited by Asmobrat

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47 minutes ago, Asmobrat said:

Anyway...  I think this was an important topic to discuss on lubrication topic...  So please don't think that I makelonger the discussion for nothing... 

Not at all, a reasoned discussion is key to understand the "why" of things, and that's the best asset in doing hobby or trade.

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