HELP with escapement

[saswatch88]

i have a vintage trench watch movements, i cleaned an oiled the movement reassembled it. the hair spring and balance are perfect with good shakes when installed. but for some reason i can only get it to tick for a few seconds then it stops, then if i try to get it to spin with an air puffer it banks to the left then stops. i played with the banking pins a bit and did not get any good results. the lock on the pallet jewels look fine too. mainspring is new and the fork banks left to right perfect when balance is not installed. its not over banking since the roller jewel is not slipping from the fork, its under banking.  the left banking pin was already bent to the outside. pushing the pins in did not allow escapement lock. so Iam thinking the right banking pin needs to be spread out. because when balance started to move it looks as if the pallet is not banking off the right pin, then it just rests on the right every time it stops. only other thing i can think off is adjust the roller. any ideas or suggestions?

[vinn3]

Quote

check out a good book or video on watch repair.

 

[yankeedog]

how does it spin with the pallet removed? readily?

[VWatchie]

What about the guard pin? Not too short, not loose, perfectly square in between the horns? Please keep us posted on any progress!

Edited March 1, 2019 by VWatchie

[saswatch88]

safety pin looks good, balance swings perfect without pallet installed. I just pushed the right banking pin out a bit further and it manages to tick but you can tell the balance is not making a full spin and the pallet just banks to the left and stops. i can see and hear that the pallet is still not hitting the right banking pin, pushing the pin in does not allow the escape to lock on the right pallet jewel, so iam gunna try moving the roller a bit looks like it may be off center. i know this movement will run great if i can just get this adjustment right

 

[Marc]

Is it in beat? 

From your second post it sounds like it might just be way out of beat in which case adjusting the banking won't help.

Try removing the pallet fork so that you can sight along along a line which goes through the escape wheel, pallet fork, and balance pivots. The impulse jewel should be on that line. If it's not then the movement will be out of beat, and if it's too far out it won't run.

[ecodec]

I reckon so ! Out of beat a long way !! 

[saswatch88]

yes iam thinking thats what it is, iam gunna mess with it tomorrow and i will update you all.

[Nucejoe]

Move the oscillator as you observe the fork( facing BB), the angular coordinate ( Balance wheel position) you see the fork moves, indicates impulse coming in contact with horn. 

The period during which,  impulse is within the horn is bounded at entery and exit, where you can see the fork react in response to slight move of balance to left or right. The movement runs if impulse is within this period, somewhere in the middle we hear the beats,    FIRST- second-THIRD..  which is what we hear as, TIC-toc TIC-toc.  

Find the period, move the stud career so impulse comes to rests within this period, when the wheel is free. Outside this period is the region Mark reffers to as too far out.

If this period is not located within the confinement of stud arm, you need to adjust the roller to bring it within the period. The impulse jewel  comes in beat within the period, any deviation from which is referred  to as beat error expressed in terms of time.

Regards

 

[saswatch88]

ok update! i took out pallet and the escape wheel, the balance is acting the same, it does not swing free and it looks as if it banks to the left just like when pallet is installed, it seems like the safety roller is rubbing against the main plate, because if i turn it with finger it get to a point where the balance just vibrates and doesnt swing. pivots are straight and shakes are perfect so i dont know hoe to go about this, new staff is not an option here...cant push up jewel because then shakes will be too little, any ideas

[Nucejoe]

Safety roller is rubbing against the mainplate. Check 

1- The lower pivot, either too short or non existant, broke, 

2- lower end stone is not in place, either shock spring snapped or lower end stone is not there at all.

If lower pivot is too short. Flip end stone over to face the domed side with pivot. You would need to adjust the spring correspondingly to hold the jewel assembly in place.

 

 

 

 

 

[saswatch88]

ok update! after all this it was end shakes after all, i slightly lifted the balance cock and now it runs like a champ. i swear end shakes can be a funny thing to observe even with magnification esp when your talking about such tiny measurements, sometimes it looks fine but its not. usually i check this by added pressure on top of the balance jewel to see if it stops with slight pressure or doesnt with heavy pressure. in this case it did not stop right away with pressure so i assumed end shakes were good.

[Nucejoe]

Wow man, awesome. Had the pivot worn short? 

[saswatch88]

no the pivots are fine. i threw it on a jacot and its was straight and nicely rounded at the top/

[Nucejoe]

The jewel housing? Or loose shock springs? What was it?

 This now should run as good as any other. 

Congrat 

[VWatchie]

21 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

ok update! after all this it was end shakes after all, i slightly lifted the balance cock and now it runs like a champ.

5

May I ask what you did to "lift the balance cock" and if it was a temporary or a permanent solution? The reason I'm curious is that I have a Vostok cal. 2414 with a way too low amplitude which improves when I loosen the balance cock screw. I've been experimenting with shims under the balance cock, but I don't seem to be able to get it right. I know it could be a number of other causes for the poor amplitude, but I'd be interested to know nevertheless.

[saswatch88]

21 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

The jewel housing? Or loose shock springs? What was it?

 This now should run as good as any other. 

Congrat 

not sure maybe a jewel was two far out but one thing iam not comfortable with is messing with jewels, i have some basic pushers in my K&D staking set and i always seem to to crack the jewels in these 100 year old movements. and yes i have the jeweling attachment. Eventually i will go all out and get the seitz set with the opener and closers, but dont think iam on that level yet. oh and on these old trench watch watch movements dont have shock proof systems

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by saswatch88

[saswatch88]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

May I ask what you did to "lift the balance cock" and if it was a temporary or a permanent solution? The reason I'm curious is that I have a Vostok cal. 2414 with a way too low amplitude which improves when I loosen the balance cock screw. I've been experimenting with shims under the balance cock, but I don't seem to be able to get it right. I know it could be a number of other causes for the poor amplitude, but I'd be interested to know nevertheless.

i tried using shims before too and it never works, some guys will gouge the main plate with a graver between the two holes where the prongs of the balance cock seats, but that is also not satisfactory as well. Other than pushing the jewels what has worked for me before is removing the balance and hairspring from the cock, then installing cock by itself i will gently pry it up with flat smooth surface pliers, i will then put the wheel back in but wont attach it to the cock, i will spin it with a puff of air and observe the shakes, i will also take a piece of pegwood and press on top of the balance cap jewel on the cock. if the wheel stops with slight pressure i know i need to open it more if it doesnt stop or shakes are too much then i know i went too far. its kind of a pain and requires some trial and error, but i was lucky this time and got it perfect on the first try. the same thing happened o this watch as soon as i loosened the screw it started ticking. 

 

[Nucejoe]

Use a wooden or polymer stick to move the jewel, push on the outer most diameter of the jewel, alternatively push on 180 degree in a X pattern, first thing you are aiming at is to get the jewel start moving ( loosening off of the position it has spent years in before), never strike with impact rather a push, use penetrating oil let soak in. Always push from outside of the movement to start moving or remove, never inside out.

Attack at 45 degree angle closing in on the jewel.

 

 

 

[saswatch88]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Use a wooden or polymer stick to move the jewel, push on the outer most diameter of the jewel, alternatively push on 180 degree in a X pattern, first thing you are aiming at is to get the jewel start moving ( loosening off of the position it has spent years in before), never strike with impact rather a push, use penetrating oil let soak in. Always push from outside of the movement to start moving or remove, never inside out.

Attack at 45 degree angle closing in on the jewel.

i have to say its good advice but i wish i could see a video of what you are talking about

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Will try posting, my problem is getting an appointment with  my camera man, my son .

[Deggsie]

Move the oscillator as you observe the fork( facing BB), the angular coordinate ( Balance wheel position) you see the fork moves, indicates impulse coming in contact with horn. 
The period during which,  impulse is within the horn is bounded at entery and exit, where you can see the fork react in response to slight move of balance to left or right. The movement runs if impulse is within this period, somewhere in the middle we hear the beats,    FIRST- second-THIRD..  which is what we hear as, TIC-toc TIC-toc.  
Find the period, move the stud career so impulse comes to rests within this period, when the wheel is free. Outside this period is the region Mark reffers to as too far out.
If this period is not located within the confinement of stud arm, you need to adjust the roller to bring it within the period. The impulse jewel  comes in beat within the period, any deviation from which is referred  to as beat error expressed in terms of time.
Regards
 

Ah. Simples! [emoji6]


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[Deggsie]

Safety roller is rubbing against the mainplate. Check 
1- The lower pivot, either too short or non existant, broke, 
2- lower end stone is not in place, either shock spring snapped or lower end stone is not there at all.
If lower pivot is too short. Flip end stone over to face the domed side with pivot. You would need to adjust the spring correspondingly to hold the jewel assembly in place.
 
 
 
 
 

I don’t know if this is feasible or possible, but can the jewel be pressed in a little to compensate for the wear on the pivot, thus restoring the clearance required?


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[Nucejoe]

Yes very muxh so,  that just may be the best approach, if raising the wheel clears all from coming into faulty contact and gets rid of excess end shake.

 Just use a wooden barbeque stick to move the jewel. Push on the  premeter of the jewel not the midle, drive the jewel in very small increments and level, switching 180 degree about the jewels premeter you tend to drive the jewel in evenly and level. Penetrating oil helps to minimize the fricrion, eases  jewels resistance to be moved.

This all best be done with all removed ,just BW and the cock,  this way you gain access to HS from both sides of the cock as well, if any final manipulation is due on the HS.

Regards

 

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

what has worked for me before is removing the balance and hairspring from the cock, then installing cock by itself i will gently pry it up with flat smooth surface pliers, i will then put the wheel back in but wont attach it to the cock, i will spin it with a puff of air and observe the shakes, i will also take a piece of pegwood and press on top of the balance cap jewel on the cock. if the wheel stops with slight pressure i know i need to open it more if it doesnt stop or shakes are too much then i know i went too far. 

Thanks, and very interesting! It seems like a very pragmatic solution and one that I’ve never heard of before. Anyway, and please bear with me as I’m still new to watch repair, do I get it right that you remove the hairspring from the balance wheel, or do you just remove the balance wheel complete with the hairspring?

The reason I’m asking is that I imagine the hairspring (if still attached to the balance), and especially the stud, would be all over the place bumping into the other parts of the watch and perhaps even entangle the hairspring while you “spin it with a puff of air and observe the shakes”.

(As it happens, I just removed my first hairspring from a balance wheel today (prying off the collet with a pair of hand levers while having the balance rest on a staking block). I have a bunch of scrap movements to practice with and on my first attempt I ruined the hairspring and snapped the balance staff. On my second attempt, everything went very smooth. Very proud of myself! )