Jump to content

HELP!!! Screwed up my 2892-A2


Recommended Posts

Hi, How well are the springs holding the lower and upper jewel assembly inside the housing? Could the jewel and chaton be loose underneath the spring in the housing?  Or tiny hair/ object  push the chaton to the side.

Dosn,t the noise shown look like one of grinding?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2019 at 5:02 AM, rodabod said:

Unless you are also seeing fluctuations in amplitude which correspond with the fluctuations in rate, then I would not initially suspect that it is an issue with power delivery (mainspring and barrel). 

If you are noticing near-instantaneous changes in rate then I would suspect it is an issue with the oscillator. 

Rodabod

The watch is apart again so I can not test but looking back at pictures and from what I  remember I did not notice corresponding drops in amp ...I do not suspect the mainspring. In any case I had pre-order one and am waiting for it to proceed with testing. 

I am leaning towards mainspring ...just because that would be the most expensive thing to replace .such is my luck...LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2019 at 7:00 AM, matabog said:

Take out the balance and escapement and see how the wheels are freely turning.

Then put the pallets and see how they snap from one side to the other. Se how they interract with the escape wheel.

Check the pallets not to be loosened or anything...

Check the pallets back-end - the one that interracts with the balance impulse pin - it must look nice and polished.

Then check the impulse pin not to bee loosesened.

 

Matabog

Thank you for your input ...I checked the  interaction between escapement and pallet fork and as well as the rotation of wheels and did not notice anything wrong .. did not see any wobble and all wheels spinning freely... 

I will take a closer look at pallet fork as you suggest

Anthony 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/26/2019 at 7:07 AM, Nucejoe said:

Hi, How well are the springs holding the lower and upper jewel assembly inside the housing? Could the jewel and chaton be loose underneath the spring in the housing?  Or tiny hair/ object  push the chaton to the side.

Dosn,t the noise shown look like one of grinding?

Nucejoe 

I did examine jewels on prior rebuilds all seemed fine...I will take another look on next rebuild.. I am working on a few other projects that need my attention. I should be back to work on this by the end of the week .

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, adiorio110 said:

Rodabod

The watch is apart again so I can not test but looking back at pictures and from what I  remember I did not notice corresponding drops in amp ...I do not suspect the mainspring. In any case I had pre-order one and am waiting for it to proceed with testing. 

I am leaning towards mainspring ...just because that would be the most expensive thing to replace .such is my luck...LOL

I meant balance wheel

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,  I now suspect equipments error.

 The threads "Demagentiser is magnetising " by margolisd.

And "Demagnetiser recommendations" covered the subject just a couple of months ago. I unfollowed the theads at the time and don,t know of conclusions if any, but recommend looking into them.

Regards 

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/28/2019 at 1:22 AM, Nucejoe said:

Hi,  I now suspect equipments error.

 The threads "Demagentiser is magnetising " by margolisd.

And "Demagnetiser recommendations" covered the subject just a couple of months ago. I unfollowed the theads at the time and don,t know of conclusions if any, but recommend looking into them.

Regards 

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

I'm Back

OK took another look at watch for the life on me I can not see anything wrong..I replaced the mainspring and barrel ...We all knew that was not the problem to begin with. The Pallet fork seems fine not  loose or bent ...All the wheels rotate freely and I do not notice any wobble the clearances are really tight so I would imagine it would make it easy to see if it was a little wacky. 

Does anyone one know what grade movement this is I believe it maybe a chronometer. Is there a way to tell?

I was thing of purchasing a new ETA 2892-A2 but the only ones I could find is elaborated grade. I can use it for another watch build.. In the interim  I can use the parts from it to test what might be wrong with cartier movement. BTW it is Cartiers Cal. 049 .

I wanted to check out Sellita sw300.1 which as everyone knows is clone Eta 2892-A2 . Are the parts interchangeable with the ETA I have?

Sorry for all the questions 

Thanks

Anthony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2019 at 3:50 PM, adiorio110 said:

Cartier Pasha with a 2892-A2

I was thinking maybe it would help if we started at the beginning? Is it a ETA 2892-A2 or a Cartier Pasha with What looks like a 2892-A2?

The reason for the question is I googled Cartier Pasha Right now and it has its own model number and the indication is the base model is 2892-A2. The wording is really interesting in that they use base model which might imply it's been changed. Then if you look at the actual technical communication some of the parts have variations which indicates they've somehow been changed.

Then it used to be that for some of the watches that eta  produced the size the technical communication they would have the manufacturing information. I always found the manufacturing information interesting as their stuff in there are not found in the technical communication. So I've attached that which explains the difference between the various grades of this watch. So visually you can tell the higher grade because the balance wheel is gold colored versus nickel colored for the lowest grade. Then it looks like the only other difference other than timekeeping for the two upper grades is chronometer grade gets serial number someplace like on the balance bridge. Usually anything that's chronometer grade there proud of it and they will mark to indicate that.

ETA 2892-A2 Manufacturing info.pdf

ETA_2892A2_TC.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, adiorio110 said:

I'm Back

OK took another look at watch for the life on me I can not see anything wrong..I replaced the mainspring and barrel ...We all knew that was not the problem to begin with. The Pallet fork seems fine not  loose or bent ...All the wheels rotate freely and I do not notice any wobble the clearances are really tight so I would imagine it would make it easy to see if it was a little wacky. 

Does anyone one know what grade movement this is I believe it maybe a chronometer. Is there a way to tell?

I was thing of purchasing a new ETA 2892-A2 but the only ones I could find is elaborated grade. I can use it for another watch build.. In the interim  I can use the parts from it to test what might be wrong with cartier movement. BTW it is Cartiers Cal. 049 .

I wanted to check out Sellita sw300.1 which as everyone knows is clone Eta 2892-A2 . Are the parts interchangeable with the ETA I have?

Sorry for all the questions 

Thanks

Anthony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok this may be a stupid question but, did you clean the movement before reassembling? if so how? the amplitude is on the lower end but still acceptable, i think you need to make adjustments to the etachron system since its your rates that are all over the place which means problem most likely lies in the high speed low torque area aka escapement and or balance assembly. The tools can be purchased from ofrei.com or esslinger.com. these tools are made specifically for the etachron studs and pins. there is many info on how to do this on this forum and youtube. i do nbot recommend chinese replacement they are not made with anykind of quality, yhou can actually see debris within the jewels from the factory! i would get a new eta if you can figure it out

etachron tools http://www.tztoolshop.com/page212.html

here is a good video 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Anthony.

Here are some checks I would do:

1. With MS completely de-powered and the click removed, tilt the main plate to vertical. Does the pallet fork freely move to the banking stop? Now tilt to the other direction. Does the pallet freely move to the opposite banking stop?
2. Now remove the pallet fork. Using a buffer, gently blow a stream of air onto the escape wheel (this needs to be very light and repeatable magnitude which comes with a little practice). What you are looking for is the escape wheel to slowly turn with minimal puff. All gears in the train right back to the barrel/first (or great) wheel should freely turn with no snagging at any point in the full 360 degree turn. This eliminates any possibility of damage / contamination / lubrication issues.
3. Clean the escape and pallet fork. Inspect the faces of the pallet stones for damage. Reassemble un-lubricated for now. Rebuild and run on the time grapher. Have the spikes/anomalies been resolved? If so, suspect contamination or you lubrication of pallet faces.
4. My last check for now would be look for clashes / interference of the HS with the balance wheel, and balance wheel with the screw which holds down the pallet fork cock.

Hope this helps Anthony. I’m watching with interest and hope the new MS resolves the issue.

Kind regards
Deggsie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me put it this way, if you screwed up your cartier 49 you now got a 2892-A2 . The more new parts find their way into this movement the lower the quality is driven down to. I think nothing is damaged to find a fault by test replacing parts,  eliminating suspects.

The  things changed are the lubricants so your assembly is not as high tech as cartier, but most of all magetization.

I find it rarional to make sure your demagentizer is doing its job right and you managed to get a true demag out of it. 

Regards

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was having a think about this on my drive in to work today. You say that the movement has been cleaned, however you don’t say how you relubed the barrel or what lube you used. It may be feasible that the edges of the mainspring are snagging on the bottom of the barrel and the barrel cover. This would cause a ‘slip-stick’ situation, and therefore not give smooth transmission of power to the train. Just a thought!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2019 at 5:19 PM, JohnR725 said:

I was thinking maybe it would help if we started at the beginning? Is it a ETA 2892-A2 or a Cartier Pasha with What looks like a 2892-A2?

The reason for the question is I googled Cartier Pasha Right now and it has its own model number and the indication is the base model is 2892-A2. The wording is really interesting in that they use base model which might imply it's been changed. Then if you look at the actual technical communication some of the parts have variations which indicates they've somehow been changed.

Then it used to be that for some of the watches that eta  produced the size the technical communication they would have the manufacturing information. I always found the manufacturing information interesting as their stuff in there are not found in the technical communication. So I've attached that which explains the difference between the various grades of this watch. So visually you can tell the higher grade because the balance wheel is gold colored versus nickel colored for the lowest grade. Then it looks like the only other difference other than timekeeping for the two upper grades is chronometer grade gets serial number someplace like on the balance bridge. Usually anything that's chronometer grade there proud of it and they will mark to indicate that.

ETA 2892-A2 Manufacturing info.pdf

ETA_2892A2_TC.pdf

It look like it is a souped up ETA-2892-A2. There is what looks like a serial number on barrel bridge and on the main plate it is stamped 2892A2 and some V8b number... 

Untitled 169.jpg

Untitled 172.jpg

Untitled 173.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2019 at 5:47 PM, saswatch88 said:

ok this may be a stupid question but, did you clean the movement before reassembling? if so how? the amplitude is on the lower end but still acceptable, i think you need to make adjustments to the etachron system since its your rates that are all over the place which means problem most likely lies in the high speed low torque area aka escapement and or balance assembly. The tools can be purchased from ofrei.com or esslinger.com. these tools are made specifically for the etachron studs and pins. there is many info on how to do this on this forum and youtube. i do nbot recommend chinese replacement they are not made with anykind of quality, yhou can actually see debris within the jewels from the factory! i would get a new eta if you can figure it out

etachron tools http://www.tztoolshop.com/page212.html

here is a good video 

 

Thanks for video ..I cleaned as I do with all my movements with Naphtha one wash and two rinses in ultrasonic ...except for pallet fork and hairspring I use one-dip for them.. ... I haven;t had any issues with any other movements with this cleaning method.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Let me put it this way, if you screwed up your cartier 49 you now got a 2892-A2 . The more new parts find their way into this movement the lower the quality is driven down to. I think nothing is damaged to find a fault by test replacing parts,  eliminating suspects.

The  things changed are the lubricants so your assembly is not as high tech as cartier, but most of all magetization.

I find it rarional to make sure your demagentizer is doing its job right and you managed to get a true demag out of it. 

Regards

 

 

I checked demagnetizer and it seems to work fine I magnetized and demagnetized several  items I also put a compass near movement to check for magnetization. It all looks good.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Deggsie said:

Hello Anthony.

Here are some checks I would do:

1. With MS completely de-powered and the click removed, tilt the main plate to vertical. Does the pallet fork freely move to the banking stop? Now tilt to the other direction. Does the pallet freely move to the opposite banking stop?
2. Now remove the pallet fork. Using a buffer, gently blow a stream of air onto the escape wheel (this needs to be very light and repeatable magnitude which comes with a little practice). What you are looking for is the escape wheel to slowly turn with minimal puff. All gears in the train right back to the barrel/first (or great) wheel should freely turn with no snagging at any point in the full 360 degree turn. This eliminates any possibility of damage / contamination / lubrication issues.
3. Clean the escape and pallet fork. Inspect the faces of the pallet stones for damage. Reassemble un-lubricated for now. Rebuild and run on the time grapher. Have the spikes/anomalies been resolved? If so, suspect contamination or you lubrication of pallet faces.
4. My last check for now would be look for clashes / interference of the HS with the balance wheel, and balance wheel with the screw which holds down the pallet fork cock.

Hope this helps Anthony. I’m watching with interest and hope the new MS resolves the issue.

Kind regards
Deggsie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey Deggsie 

I am going to tear down and rebuild AGAIN ...When I do I will perform the test you suggested ....As it looks now the wheels seem to spin freely  ... I did not touch the original barrel ...I did not have tool to rewind mainspring ( I do now)...I did replace barrel with new complete barrel and mainspring for the last test that I did ..Same results... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it hard to see how you could get such an extreme  rate change such as the graph posted below, unless it was related to the vibration of the hairspring. Are you absolutely sure that it isn’t contaminated or rubbing/sticking?

4.jpg

I have noticed when working on a relatively new 2824 yesterday that they do seem to be susceptible to drying out and possibly wearing slightly at the escape wheel which results in a sludge embedded in the escape wheel teeth. This can potentially require careful cleaning with pith wood if your cleaning solution does not remove it. However, it’s unlikely to cause as drastic rate changes as you are seeing, unless the overall amplitude was extremely low. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rodabod said:

I find it hard to see how you could get such an extreme  rate change such as the graph posted below, unless it was related to the vibration of the hairspring. Are you absolutely sure that it isn’t contaminated or rubbing/sticking?

4.jpg

I have noticed when working on a relatively new 2824 yesterday that they do seem to be susceptible to drying out and possibly wearing slightly at the escape wheel which results in a sludge embedded in the escape wheel teeth. This can potentially require careful cleaning with pith wood if your cleaning solution does not remove it. However, it’s unlikely to cause as drastic rate changes as you are seeing, unless the overall amplitude was extremely low. 

This graph raised my doublts that pivots may be rubbing against something (loose piece of metal etc remained inside jewel housing,  or a speck of dirt pushing the chaton to the side which could cause the pivots to rub against housing hole. Since despite repeated cleaning, jewels were removed only once. Repeated cleaning on the other hand reduces chance of HS contamination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, adiorio110 said:

It look like it is a souped up ETA-2892-A2. There is what looks like a serial number on barrel bridge and on the main plate it is stamped 2892A2 and some V8b number... 

If you look at the manufacturing information document it specifies that a serial number is placed on the mainspring barrel bridge which is what you have which means this is a chronometer grade movement. Then of course the 2892A2 Is the base movement. The other number is usually a date code possibly a location and a date code of where the movement was manufactured.

When the watch is on the timing machine is it entirely reassembled? when you're having a problem like this I wouldn't put the automatic back on or any of the calendar components until  you getting something decent on the timing machine.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/7/2019 at 1:02 PM, JohnR725 said:

If you look at the manufacturing information document it specifies that a serial number is placed on the mainspring barrel bridge which is what you have which means this is a chronometer grade movement. Then of course the 2892A2 Is the base movement. The other number is usually a date code possibly a location and a date code of where the movement was manufactured.

When the watch is on the timing machine is it entirely reassembled? when you're having a problem like this I wouldn't put the automatic back on or any of the calendar components until  you getting something decent on the timing machine.

 

John

 

Since the first rebuild I have not installed calendar works or Automatic on ..Same results... I started fooling with the balance and if it wasn't screwed up before it is now.  On spec sheel it says 19 Var for chrono grade is it the same as ETA2892.721-13  it is listed as Timed Balance, Regulated with Stud for Chronometer ETA 2892-A2 

 

Thanks 

Anthony 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, adiorio110 said:

I started fooling with the balance and if it wasn't screwed up before it is now. 

Unfortunately that's a problem with watch repair of attempting to repair a problem that we still don't know or grasp what the problem is. It's obviously not a regulation issue it something else that we still don't grasp so attempting to make it into the problem that it is not and fixing that nonexistent problem usually doesn't always turn out well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately that's a problem with watch repair of attempting to repair a problem that we still don't know or grasp what the problem is. It's obviously not a regulation issue it something else that we still don't grasp so attempting to make it into the problem that it is not and fixing that nonexistent problem usually doesn't always turn out well.

well like they say " The best lessons are the ones you pay for " anyway I will be needing a balance is the one I listed in previous post acceptable

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately that's a problem with watch repair of attempting to repair a problem that we still don't know or grasp what the problem is. It's obviously not a regulation issue it something else that we still don't grasp so attempting to make it into the problem that it is not and fixing that nonexistent problem usually doesn't always turn out well.

 

1 hour ago, adiorio110 said:

John

 

Since the first rebuild I have not installed calendar works or Automatic on ..Same results... I started fooling with the balance and if it wasn't screwed up before it is now.  On spec sheel it says 19 Var for chrono grade is it the same as ETA2892.721-13  it is listed as Timed Balance, Regulated with Stud for Chronometer ETA 2892-A2 

 

Thanks 

Anthony

I really turely believe you didn,t screw up anything. It is dirt. Unlikely to have remained following repeated strip down/ clean, unless locked in with the jewel housing whichthe I understand you removed only once. If dirt got in,  the staff and jewels are no longer in line therefore staff may touch the jewel housing hole or chatons, etc.

First thing I do, is to drop jewel and end stone in a container, add 5 cc  lighter fluid, close the lid, rotate container to whirl the fluid around for couple of mins. Do the same with lower jewel, inspect the housing and make sure no uninvited object is present, while at it I rinse the balance complete.oil reinstal. 

Regards 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/11/2019 at 2:08 PM, Nucejoe said:

 

I really turely believe you didn,t screw up anything. It is dirt. Unlikely to have remained following repeated strip down/ clean, unless locked in with the jewel housing whichthe I understand you removed only once. If dirt got in,  the staff and jewels are no longer in line therefore staff may touch the jewel housing hole or chatons, etc.

First thing I do, is to drop jewel and end stone in a container, add 5 cc  lighter fluid, close the lid, rotate container to whirl the fluid around for couple of mins. Do the same with lower jewel, inspect the housing and make sure no uninvited object is present, while at it I rinse the balance complete.oil reinstal. 

Regards 

 

 

Hi all

 

Just to update everyone...The last time I took apart the movement I dropped the balance cock with the hairspring so if it wasn't screwed up before it was when I looked at it anyway after attempting to unkink it . I gave up and purchased a new one ...The watch is running a lot smoother but still needs to be dialed in a little. Just haven't had the time. (hey I think I made a pun LOL)

 

Thank You for everyone that helped troubleshoot the problem  ..I did try just about everything mentioned to the best of my abilities.. 

The etachron adjustment might be something new to drive me crazy...I think I was better off before getting timegrapher ...(ignorance is bliss) 

 

Regards 

Anthony

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.? a
    • Hold the crown when in winding position, move the click away from the crown wheel, and then while holding the crown let it slowly unwind. I recollect that you must remove the automatic device bridge first, but maybe I'm wrong. You can first try without removing the automatic device bridge.
    • nevenbekriev- You nailed it with your description of me and my reaction when the clock started ticking again. I am a newbie.  I love the sound and idea of mechanical clocks but the idea of owning one and trying to keep them running has never appealed to me. My wife bought this one and an antique German wall clock.  When I looked into having someone repair them for me, the universal response was "it's really expensive to work on them, you should just replace the movement". So, I had nothing to lose, I started researching them and opened them up. The wife is happy because she hears the sound of the clocks again. But I have gone down the "accuracy" rabbit hole. In the vertical position, the balance wheel was not floating. It was sitting on the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the lower spring collet and got it floating. It easily passed the 270 degree 3 to 5 minute oscillation test. It took 8 minutes for the wheel to completely stop moving.  I put it the unit back in the movement and checked the safety pin. It does not touch the safety roller anywhere in +/-270 degrees rotation from neutral position. But the amplitude of the rotation with the spring fully wound is weak based on what you are saying. It rotates +/-90 degrees from the neutral position.  No, I did not take the movement completely apart.  That seemed way outside my skill set at the time. There is a reason I became an electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I am much more comfortable with moving electrons than tiny moving metal parts. Will I do it in the long run? Anything can happen. I don't seem to be able to let it go.
    • Isn't that the same guy who told Zelenskyy to escalate the war with Russia/Putin when they already had a peace deal? 2 years later and we have half a million young Ukranian boys dead. He doesn't seem very clever...
×
×
  • Create New...