Seiko skx007 regulating question

[snegron]

My Seiko skx007J was running a bit slow when new (around -10 seconds per day), so I regulated it, got it to +1 second per day.

 

Several weeks later it started running slower to -10 seconds per day. I rarely use this watch. I wind it every night (gently shaking it 300 times) and place it face up on a flat surface.

 

So, I regulated it again (using my timegraph) to +3 seconds per day. Ran well for about a week, but then started running slow again. It now runs -20 seconds per day; not magnetized,  no impact (same as always, I don't use it, I wind it every night and set it face up on a dresser).

 

Any suggestions (other than scrapping the movement and replacing it with another)?

[oldhippy]

How long ago did you buy it? If a few years it could be it just needs a clean. It might even be the hair spring has got a hair or speck of dirt fouling it up. Its a bit drastic to think of scrapping it. 

[snegron]

Just now, oldhippy said:

How long ago did you buy it? If a few years it could be it just needs a clean. It might even be the hair spring has got a hair or speck of dirt fouling it up. Its a bit drastic to think of scrapping it. 

I bought it new around a year and a half ago. I'll check for dirt, hair, etc. However, as far as I know,  I was the first/only person to have opened it since it was new. 

Thanks!

[oldhippy]

It should not be too dirty, but a speck of dirt in the wrong place can cause trouble. 

[Nucejoe]

There is always enough residual dirt around the rim of the back plate, no short supply of dirt, So prior to removal of the back one should brush the rim, repeat half way openned and use bulb air blower to blow the dirt off.

As for now, you should try to blow the movement clean, easy on HS and strong elsewhere . Best to take the movement out since dirt can get blown to the other side and on dial plate, also wash the case and demagnetize the movement when it is out of the case.

 

 

[snegron]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

There is always enough residual dirt around the rim of the back plate, no short supply of dirt, So prior to removal of the back one should brush the rim, repeat half way openned and use bulb air blower to blow the dirt off.

As for now, you should try to blow the movement clean, easy on HS and strong elsewhere . Best to take the movement out since dirt can get blown to the other side and on dial plate, also wash the case and demagnetize the movement when it is out of the case.

 

 

Thanks! I have a rubber blower I use to clean sensors on my dslr cameras. Hopefully it will do the trick.

 

Worst case scenario, what else should I check in case cleaning/demagnetizing doesn't fix the issue?

[TexasDon]

If your watch is only 18 months old, it should be a bit more stable than you've described. Which movement do you have? Most have the 7S26 but some watches made for the JDM will actually have the 7S36. If you have the 7S26 movement, check the rotor to insure that you have the "C" release. It has a better balance staff and regulating mechanism than the "A" version. If by some stroke of really bad luck you have the "B" version then contact your place of purchase as I believe SII will replace your movement at no cost to you. 

[snegron]

11 minutes ago, TexasDon said:

If your watch is only 18 months old, it should be a bit more stable than you've described. Which movement do you have? Most have the 7S26 but some watches made for the JDM will actually have the 7S36. If you have the 7S26 movement, check the rotor to insure that you have the "C" release. It has a better balance staff and regulating mechanism than the "A" version. If by some stroke of really bad luck you have the "B" version then contact your place of purchase as I believe SII will replace your movement at no cost to you. 

 

11 minutes ago, TexasDon said:

If your watch is only 18 months old, it should be a bit more stable than you've described. Which movement do you have? Most have the 7S26 but some watches made for the JDM will actually have the 7S36. If you have the 7S26 movement, check the rotor to insure that you have the "C" release. It has a better balance staff and regulating mechanism than the "A" version. If by some stroke of really bad luck you have the "B" version then contact your place of purchase as I believe SII will replace your movement at no cost to you. 

Definitely the 7S26 version, not sure about the "C" release though. What does the "B" version look like?

[TexasDon]

The "A" version has the older balance staff and regulator. The "B" version was to update the movement to the new version but it was a disaster due to a factory defect which allowed the HS to become wedged beneath a pin on the regulating post. The "C" version, which is the latest, was released to correct this problem. The version number is stamped on the counterweight along with the caliber information. 

You will need to remove the back to see this view. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by TexasDon
clarity

[snegron]

18 minutes ago, TexasDon said:

The "A" version has the older balance staff and regulator. The "B" version was to update the movement to the new version but it was a disaster due to a factory defect which allowed the HS to become wedged beneath a pin on the regulating post. The "C" version, which is the latest, was released to correct this problem. The version number is stamped on the counterweight along with the caliber information. 

You will need to remove the back to see this view. 

Thanks!! I'll open it up and check it tomorrow.  If it is the "B" version, would it be a matter of simply changing out the balance, or would it require a new HS as well?

Edited January 30, 2019 by snegron
Spelling...

[TexasDon]

It would require a complete new balance assembly and regulator. It's my understanding that Seiko will do this for you. If your SKX007J isn't a counterfeit, then there's little chance of you having the "B" version as almost all of that production was from SII's Singapore manufacturing facility. Yours will likely say made in the Philippines, possibly Malaysia. Japan regards both as part of the JDM. One of the reasons why J versions of the SKX007 began commanding a higher price was the point of manufacture for the movement. I've seen a few J versions with a 7S36 movement also. More than likely it was as a result of higher demand than could be supplied with 7S26 movements for a short while. 

[snegron]

I haven't had the chance to open it up (waiting on rubber gasket for the case back I ordered), but for some miraculous reason it returned to -2.7 seconds per day! I'm guessing there must have been some tiny particle obstructing the HS as many of you suggested. As soon as the gaskets and grease I ordered arrive I will open it up and give it a thorough cleaning.

 

Thanks again everyone!!

[Macgman2000]

Hi,

I stumbled across this post on the Seiko 7s26. I bought 2 watches new, the diver watch SKX version and 2 months later the dress watch case version with this movement. Both are incredibly disappointing. Terrible experience with this movement. Both exhibited double digit running fast or slow in different orientations. I got so frustrated trying to regulate these watches when I was first starting out in this hobby. In fact I thought I was doing something wrong and bought a time grapher to "do it right". The machine just reinforced how bad these movements are. I am glad I got the machine. My very next purchase was a 9015 movement and then 2824-2.....wow drastic difference,  both regulated beautifully. I can't help but walk away with a notion that Seiko has somehow lost its way. Two different retailers, two different watch cases....same 7s26 movement. Both sitting in a drawer with no interest to revisit. Am alone in my experience?

-Nick

 

[snegron]

Hi Nick,

 

You are not alone. I have owned 3 watches with this movement and had the same negative experience.  Seriously considering tossing the movement of my SKX007J and replacing it with a quartz movement. My SKX007J has the stainless steel endmill band. Looks awesome but is the most unreliable watch I have ever owned. No idea why there are so many SKX007 fans out there. 

Ironically,  I also own a Seiko Prospex solar powered diver and it too is unreliable; it runs fast by +20 seconds per month on average! Same with my other solar powered Seikos. Only accurate Seiko I own is an old quartz chrono; runs only +2 seconds fast per month. 

I still haven't had the time to re-open my SKX007J and search for any tiny debris.  Will probably get to it this weekend.  Won't be getting my hopes up too high as this watch has been nothing but a disappointment since new.

 

[Nucejoe]

On 1/30/2019 at 12:02 AM, snegron said:

Thanks! I have a rubber blower I use to clean sensors on my dslr cameras. Hopefully it will do the trick.

 

Worst case scenario, what else should I check in case cleaning/demagnetizing doesn't fix the issue?

Sorry for late response, I just noticed your post.  Perhaps best bet would be to lower expectaions, if you feel comfortable with balance-cock removal, cleaning and demagnetizeing the balance outside the watch and right oiling may do some good.

[TexasDon]

Unfortunately, this is why some Seiko movements have fallen into disfavor. In fact, pricing is reflecting point of origin more and more on the 7S26. Those movements made in Malaysia or Singapore tend to fetch lower prices than the ones still made in Japan. I can throw a little accelerant on this fire by adding that I've never had a bad movement from Japan. On the other hand I've had one sourced from Malaysia that wasn't worth the space it occupied.

[snegron]

On 1/29/2019 at 8:27 PM, TexasDon said:

The "A" version has the older balance staff and regulator. The "B" version was to update the movement to the new version but it was a disaster due to a factory defect which allowed the HS to become wedged beneath a pin on the regulating post. The "C" version, which is the latest, was released to correct this problem. The version number is stamped on the counterweight along with the caliber information. 

You will need to remove the back to see this view. 

I finally got around to opening it up. It is the "C" version. I cleaned it up with a blower (didn't see any hair or particles), regulated it again,  checked it on my timegrapher. It seems to continue to be slowing down, but not by as much as before.

 

 

[meanoldmanning]

That amplitude is pretty low. Should be nearer the 270 range minimum on a fairly new 7s. Right there suggests something ain’t right.


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[jdm]

1 hour ago, snegron said:

I cleaned it up with a blower (didn't see any hair or particles), regulated it again,  checked it on my timegrapher.

It should not make a big difference in term of accuracy, but try to to adjust beat error as well. It's the arm where the end of the hairsping is pinned, just like the rate regulator it needs minuscule movement. 

Other than that, I can only note that the number of people complaining about Seiko (accuracy or anything else) is a small percentage compared to who's happy about it, which matches my own experience after handling some hundreds.

Comparing to ETA 2824 makes no sense, the 7S26 is $30  bought in quantity (actually Seiko / SII doesn't even sell it anymore after the introduction of the 4R36 / NH36), while a 2824 is like 6 times as much, or more.

[jdm]

22 minutes ago, meanoldmanning said:

That amplitude is pretty low. Should be nearer the 270 range minimum on a fairly new 7s. Right there suggests something ain’t right.

Actually amplitude varies a lot even among relatively new Seikos, like the OP one. 214 deg is not stellar but still acceptable, one should check with a full winding at the barrel screw. 270 deg. is really rarely seen even on brand new ones, but what you will certain find on these is an average of 0.5ms beat error, and 10-15 sec/day fast rate,
And good luck finding that something which "isn't right" to cause low amplitude, believe me .. I've tried.

Edited April 7, 2019 by jdm

[meanoldmanning]

Actually amplitude varies a lot even among relatively new Seikos, like the OP one. 214 deg is not stellar but still acceptable, one should check with a full winding at the barrel screw. 270 deg. is really rarely seen even on brand new ones, but what you will certain find on these is an average of 0.5ms beat error, and 10-15 sec/day fast rate,

And good luck finding that something which "isn't right" to cause low amplitude, believe me .. I've tried.

 

214 isn’t acceptable in my book. I don’t have many of them but none of the half dozen or so I’ve had have such low amplitude, at least not when anywhere near full wind. All of the NH3x and 7s26/36 I’ve had run at minimum at 270 +- a few degrees. Even the old 700x series mov’ts I’ve worked on wind up closer to the 270 range than not.

 

And yes the OP needs to wind at the barrel screw, not by swinging the watch x number of times.

 

Some old photos I had on hand. First is a 7s36 after being worn all day. The second is an NH36 after being worn all day. Both were in new unopened watches

 

 

 

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[jdm]

3 minutes ago, meanoldmanning said:

214 isn’t acceptable in my book. I don’t have many of them but none of the half dozen or so I’ve had have such low amplitude, at least not when anywhere near full wind. All of the NH3x and 7s26/36 I’ve had run at minimum at 270 +- a few degrees. Even the old 700x series mov’ts I’ve worked on wind up closer to the 270 range than not.

Then you're exceptionally lucky with your collection. Here's a random pic from my archives, that is a an Aug. '11 unserviced watch.

Do you work on Seiko movements? If so you could perhaps share some tips to increase amplitude, that is certainly one parameter in which they are inferior to the Swiss. That is, until one realizes that they are sufficiently accurate anyway.

[jdm]

24 minutes ago, meanoldmanning said:

Some old photos I had on hand. First is a 7s36 after being worn all day. The second is an NH36 after being worn all day. Both were in new unopened watches

What I've found is that the lack of consistency across units of the same age is kind of dismaying. See below thread for an example, of an exceptionally good one, others of the same age weren't doing nearly as good,  and needed service way before the canonical 5 years. 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by jdm

[meanoldmanning]

Then you're exceptionally lucky with your collection. Here's a random pic from my archives, that is a an Aug. '11 unserviced watch. Do you work on Seiko movements? If so you could perhaps share some tips to increase amplitude, that is certainly one parameter in which they are inferior to the Swiss. That is, until one realizes that they are sufficiently accurate anyway.

 

 

Yes, it’s pretty much all I work on. 63xx series, 700x series, 7s, some of the smaller mov’ts from ladies watches, 754x quartz, etc.  

The common understanding is Seikos run at lower amp than Swiss but that’s usually misunderstood in my opinion to mean dismally low amp like in the OP’s post. Even the old 63xx mov’ts I service wind up running around 250+ otherwise I start over. Cleanliness, pivots and jewels in good condition, proper oiling. QC from the factory seems to be pretty low for sure, I’ve seen photos of brand new 7s mov’ts that are way over oiled with oil migrating from the pivots in the winding mech. That doesn’t benefit anything

 

Here’s a 6349 I serviced recently (40 years old mov’t).

 

 

 

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[snegron]

After winding it as much as possible, I placed it back on the timegrapher. Amplitude starts higher (268, 270), but then drops down to the 250's after a few minutes.  Then it drops down to the 240's .