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How to remove stem from this JLC


AP1875

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The roller position on those two pics looks pretty much the same to my eyes. I'm looking realitive to the cock. I still wonder if it wasn't just that the roller wasn't aligned with the fork the last time. Is the new balance running correctly or just running?

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Before playing with the roller did you do this suggestion which I've quoted above? It's amazing how much of a correction you can get by moving the stud holder or if somebody bumps it and it's not where it's supposed to be. So as you can understand what were suggesting you do I'm attaching an image.
Ideally you should be visually looking at the pallet fork verifying that you're in beat visually because if you're paying attention to the timing machine it's really easy to go past where you're supposed to be and get hopelessly lost. So visually need to be in beat reasonably close before you start pushing it on the timing machine.
HS-Stud.JPG.72f51775d730f394bd1ac5209c4891cb.JPG


Hi John, thanks for your advice. So to do this I need to look straight down the pallet fork to the impulse jewel and check it’s lying directly in the middle? I’ve tried doing this under magnification and I can’t quite see the end of the pallet fork where it meets the jewel unfortunately


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The roller position on those two pics looks pretty much the same to my eyes. I'm looking realitive to the cock. I still wonder if it wasn't just that the roller wasn't aligned with the fork the last time. Is the new balance running correctly or just running?


f35fe7cf6fa5b881663bc2ab1a104104.jpg

This is with the new (but needs a clean balance). Moving the regulator arm to both extremes did nothing to the beat error


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To check if the impulse jewel rests inside the fork horn, observing any part of the fork you can see, would do.  manually rotate the ballance wheel to see the fork move, impulse jewel is inside the horn where slight clock- anticlock move of ballance wheel causes the fork changes direcrion in response.  

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To check if the impulse jewel rests inside the fork horn, observing any part of the fork you can see, would do.  manually rotate the ballance wheel to see the fork move, impulse jewel is inside the horn where slight clock- anticlock move of ballance wheel causes the fork changes direcrion in response.  


Surely if the watch is running at all the jewel must be inside the fork?

I will try this again without concentrating on trying to see the impulse so much and focus my attention on the fork


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By the looks on your time graph you are almost there.
The beat error you have shouldn't be impossible to adjust with the movable stud, the regulator pin just changes the rate of the oscillation.
On the picture the left hairspring looks like being a little bit unadjusted, if the regulator pin doesn't move correct along the hairspring it will not regulate the oscillation correctly.  
 

imageproxy.jpg

Edited by HSL
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1 hour ago, AP1875 said:

So to do this I need to look straight down the pallet fork to the impulse jewel and check it’s lying directly in the middle?

Yes that is the ideal ideally you want to see the roller jewel is perfectly centered and aligned where it's supposed to be but it is impossible normally see the roller jewel with any watch. So the simple is to make sure the pallet fork is centered between the banking pins. That is usually relatively easy to do. The other solution is especially since you've taken your balance wheel out is to look at the alignment of where the roller jewel is and put a mark on the outer edge of the balance wheel corresponding to where the roller jewel Is and then make sure that's centered over the invisible line from the center of the balance staff to the center of the escape wheel.

I notice the reference above to moving the regulator arm so a clarification the regulator arm regulates the timekeeping the stud changes the beat. So you have two separate arms I'm attaching an image of the regulator see you can see where that is. Then there is an unfortunate habit of sometimes moving one actually moves both of them usually moving the stud moves both of them.

Another way to get close if you visually can't see what you need to see Google the model number of your watch look at the images and assume that other people have their studded regulator about where there supposed to be and that will get you reasonably close and then just very tiny movements of the stud because it can be very dramatic the effect.

Timing machine interpretations? I noticed in your first image it looked like random dots and the timing machine does not have intelligence if it does not see whatever it perceives it's supposed to see it will still indicate something so random dots usually mean the numbers are wrong. Next image that I have below looks better but I do have concerns? Numerically it looks good but graphical a the lines are really far apart? The problem and we've already done an experiment it's elsewhere in this discussion group if the beat is great enough the lines will roll over and no longer graphically represent what they're supposed to.  Then in the experiment I don't think we push the numbers over 9.9 so I'm assuming even though we didn't do it that if you go over 9.9 the machine will roll over and 10 Is probably going to look really outstanding as it's now going to be a really small number. So basically are graphical display doesn't agreed numerically with the numbers there too far apart.

Then in the picture that HSL Has put your stud back to about their new awards put it back where it was when you found it which should correspond hopefully the pictures you find online that should get you close and see what the timing machine looks like then.
 

HS-Reg.JPG

beat-bad.JPG

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By the looks on your time graph you are almost there.
The beat error you have shouldn't be impossible to adjust with the movable stud, the regulator pin just changes the rate of the oscillation.
On the picture the left hairspring looks like being a little bit unadjusted, if the regulator pin doesn't move correct along the hairspring it will not regulate the oscillation correctly.  
 
imageproxy.jpg.767fbcc8863dded1bd07ba450b019429.jpg


Duh, can’t believe I thought that rookie mistake. Getting too wrapped up in other things and forgetting the basics.

So i adjust the + and - ? I’ve not seen this type before can I just adjust one without the other?

How would you approach adjusting this?


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Yes that is the ideal ideally you want to see the roller jewel is perfectly centered and aligned where it's supposed to be but it is impossible normally see the roller jewel with any watch. So the simple is to make sure the pallet fork is centered between the banking pins. That is usually relatively easy to do. The other solution is especially since you've taken your balance wheel out is to look at the alignment of where the roller jewel is and put a mark on the outer edge of the balance wheel corresponding to where the roller jewel Is and then make sure that's centered over the invisible line from the center of the balance staff to the center of the escape wheel.
I notice the reference above to moving the regulator arm so a clarification the regulator arm regulates the timekeeping the stud changes the beat. So you have two separate arms I'm attaching an image of the regulator see you can see where that is. Then there is an unfortunate habit of sometimes moving one actually moves both of them usually moving the stud moves both of them.
Another way to get close if you visually can't see what you need to see Google the model number of your watch look at the images and assume that other people have their studded regulator about where there supposed to be and that will get you reasonably close and then just very tiny movements of the stud because it can be very dramatic the effect.
Timing machine interpretations? I noticed in your first image it looked like random dots and the timing machine does not have intelligence if it does not see whatever it perceives it's supposed to see it will still indicate something so random dots usually mean the numbers are wrong. Next image that I have below looks better but I do have concerns? Numerically it looks good but graphical a the lines are really far apart? The problem and we've already done an experiment it's elsewhere in this discussion group if the beat is great enough the lines will roll over and no longer graphically represent what they're supposed to.  Then in the experiment I don't think we push the numbers over 9.9 so I'm assuming even though we didn't do it that if you go over 9.9 the machine will roll over and 10 Is probably going to look really outstanding as it's now going to be a really small number. So basically are graphical display doesn't agreed numerically with the numbers there too far apart.
Then in the picture that HSL Has put your stud back to about their new awards put it back where it was when you found it which should correspond hopefully the pictures you find online that should get you close and see what the timing machine looks like then.
 
HS-Reg.JPG.0927aecc108683e11cdc6f960f220200.JPG
beat-bad.JPG.eca384fad3bdf169de6ec032f9025815.JPG


Thanks for that John, lots for me to take in there. I’ll try what HSL suggested first if that doesn’t work out for me. I’ll try placing a small mark on the balance.

I looked online and most images look pretty much exactly like mine, in some the rate is slightly more clockwise.

I don’t want to detract too far away from this was working and has just sat in a holder with the occasional auto wind. I think it would be pretty hard for one of the corrector screws to be adjusted by accident.


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30 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

Duh, can’t believe I thought that rookie mistake. Getting too wrapped up in other things and forgetting the basics.

So i adjust the + and - ? I’ve not seen this type before can I just adjust one without the other?

How would you approach adjusting this?

I would begin putting back the original balance. Sometimes oil or dirt from the most unexpected sources get stuck on the hairspring and by time makes the performance poor.
On the original hairspring one can see the regulator don't go completely free, that makes the hairspring get caught in the regulator pin and you will get a beat error and a rate fluctuation because when the hairspring gets caught it is just like you move the hairspring stud to the place the spring gets in contact with the regulator pin. This also makes the position of the impulse jewel move too, hence the beat error.
Next time the balance wheel goes the opposite way it gets loose again, and when it once again returns to the position of getting stuck it will not get caught in exact the same place.
On a time graph you can see this effect as whole lot of small specs randomly spread on the timeline.

So first make sure the arc where the regulator pin runs is 100% free, after that I would begin regulating the watch.
I think this guy even if he lack of charisma is better than me in explaining how it's done.
In the theme of regulating he made a video of overbanking and one of rebanking which are excellent too. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYk787sjAM

Edited by HSL
Swenglish
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I
On the original hairspring one can see the regulator don't go completely free, that makes the hairspring get caught in the regulator pin


That’s a great video thanks. So first I need to check when moving the regulator the end coil doesn’t get caught up? This is where in the video he is moving it backwards and forwards making slight adjustments?

8ac0163c7c3f897b13fe07df9b076223.jpg


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1 hour ago, AP1875 said:

So first I need to check when moving the regulator the end coil doesn’t get caught up? This is where in the video he is moving it backwards and forwards making slight adjustments?

Yes in the video you first see how a small little twitch is making the regulator slightly get caught in the hair spring and when moved it was not just altering the oscillation frequency but also the beat error. This is due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.
As you see he has taken of the hairspring so he also can see so the spring collar when adjusted is almost dead center.
When it's dead center and flat he puts it back on the balance staff. It's now one realize one should taken a picture of the hairsprings collar original position, if you put it back as it was you probably will start off with a minimal beat error otherwise you have to patiently adjust the collar slightly back and forth , if you are lucky you could see when the impulse jewel is in the center in the pallets horns otherwise you have to use your timer and see how the error is moving. . He might have intentionally left this part out from the video.
At last he checks the beat error is not changing while moving the regulator, then the arc is correctly done.

To adjust the final beat error you use the movable stud arm. Just remember the slightest move makes a big impact. Before adjusting again let it run for some minutes.
 

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On 2/2/2019 at 3:01 PM, HSL said:

Yes in the video you first see how a small little twitch is making the regulator slightly get caught in the hair spring and when moved it was not just altering the oscillation frequency but also the beat error. This is due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.
As you see he has taken of the hairspring so he also can see so the spring collar when adjusted is almost dead center.
When it's dead center and flat he puts it back on the balance staff. It's now one realize one should taken a picture of the hairsprings collar original position, if you put it back as it was you probably will start off with a minimal beat error otherwise you have to patiently adjust the collar slightly back and forth , if you are lucky you could see when the impulse jewel is in the center in the pallets horns otherwise you have to use your timer and see how the error is moving. . He might have intentionally left this part out from the video.
At last he checks the beat error is not changing while moving the regulator, then the arc is correctly done.

To adjust the final beat error you use the movable stud arm. Just remember the slightest move makes a big impact. Before adjusting again let it run for some minutes.
 

I got an hour before work today to set up the camera and take a look at the end curve of the balance. I can see slight movement, in the hair spring. What do you guys think? Is this enough to cause a significant issue?

One other thing that happened is when I put the balance back in I gave it some turns of the crown very slowly and it seemed to be running nicely, not this strange idle I have been seeing. I didn't put the screw back in to fix the balance. I lifted the movement over to the timegrapher to check it out and something happened and was idling again....

 

anyway here is the video..

 

Youtube really does compress things so apologies for the quality original file is much better

 

 

Edited by AP1875
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This behaves better than anything I ever adjusted, if it acts as good when you tighten the stud screw, I like a lesson on how you did it. 

Looks like positioning the impulse prependiculare to spokes would move the stud right on the spoke and that is only a millimeter of HS or two. Dosn,t look to me this would bring the impulse in beat.

Edited by Nucejoe
Sorry about double print, I don,t know what I do wrong.
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This behaves better than anything I ever adjusted, if it acts as good when you tighten the stud screw, I like a lesson on how you did it. 

Looks like positioning the impulse prependiculare to spokes would move the stud right on top of  the spoke and that is only a millimeter of HS or two. Dosn,t look to me this would bring the stud  back enough to put the impulse  in beat.

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