How to remove stem from this JLC

[Nucejoe]

How can ballnce get out of place? Possibilities are,

1-:Short or damaged pivot

2- Excessive staff axial play

3- loose or damaged endstone spring.

[nickelsilver]

No idea how it could have happened, but it appears the roller table is turned about 15 degrees from normal. In the pic with the balance at rest, the arms are perpendicular to the fork. This is normal. With the roller turned like that you’ll have a massive beat error though.

That it doesn't run may be as simple as the fork being on the wrong side of the roller jewel after reinstalling.

[Nucejoe]

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Not just your gut feeling, Note when he tries to get the balance moving with tweezers, the wheel will go some 20 degrees  for impulse to recieve impact from the fork. I didn,t know that accounts for such low amplitude or dose it.

So bring the stud career back, until the slightest turn of the balance in either direction moves the fork. You can observe the fork and pallets from top view. 

 

It looked more like 20 degrees to me. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

No idea how it could have happened, but it appears the roller table is turned about 15 degrees from normal. In the pic with the balance at rest, the arms are perpendicular to the fork. This is normal. With the roller turned like that you’ll have a massive beat error though.

That it doesn't run may be as simple as the fork being on the wrong side of the roller jewel after reinstalling.

Hi Nickelsilver, I check everything I suspect, I learned here, that is how I make up for my lack of experience. So here is the towel and             

[AP1875]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

No idea how it could have happened, but it appears the roller table is turned about 15 degrees from normal. In the pic with the balance at rest, the arms are perpendicular to the fork. This is normal. With the roller turned like that you’ll have a massive beat error though.

That it doesn't run may be as simple as the fork being on the wrong side of the roller jewel after reinstalling.

 

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

It looked more like 20 degrees to me. 

Hi guys, I've got a little lost in the terminology, which part has turned 15/20 degrees?

[nickelsilver]

Hi guys, I've got a little lost in the terminology, which part has turned 15/20 degrees?

The roller table. Sorry, on phone, so hard to bring up an image. It's what's on the balance staff and holds the roller jewel. In 99.99% of cases (and clearly in yours) the roller jewel should be at 90 degrees to the balance arms. They should be at 90 degrees to the fork (line from escapeme wheel pivot jewel to balance pivot jewel).

[Nucejoe]

Hi, the position ballance wheel comes to rest when movement stops, is about 15 degrees ahead of the point where the fork transfers energy to impulse jewel. 

Seems like the roller is set correctly  but the HS is set 20 degree off, making the angle between impulse-center-stud 20 degrees too wide.

Either roller table or hs set wrong, same difference.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Nucejoe

[AP1875]

The roller table. Sorry, on phone, so hard to bring up an image. It's what's on the balance staff and holds the roller jewel. In 99.99% of cases (and clearly in yours) the roller jewel should be at 90 degrees to the balance arms. They should be at 90 degrees to the fork (line from escapeme wheel pivot jewel to balance pivot jewel).

So, I’m definitely out of my depth here but let’s see if I can learn.

Do you mean this part highlighted in red (sorry for the dodgy arrow drawing with my finger on phone).

How do I go about resolving this? Thank you guys for all your help




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[AP1875]

Hi, the position ballance wheel comes to rest when movement stops, is about 15 degrees ahead of the point where the fork transfers energy to impulse jewel. 
Seems like the roller is set correctly  but the HS is set 20 degree off, making the angle between impulse-center-stud 20 degrees too wide.
Either roller table or hs set wrong, same difference.
 
 

I added a picture above, I thought I quoted you in the post. Thank you


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[Nucejoe]

Yes that is what Nickelsilver says and been suspecting all along.

[AP1875]

Yes that is what Nickelsilver says and been suspecting all along.

In the picture above looking down at it does it need to turn anti-clockwise?




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[Nucejoe]

I,d say wait, lets make sure, before you mess with it. This is a dangerous zone , too much hairspringly.

[AP1875]

I,d say wait, lets make sure, before you mess with it. This is a dangerous zone , too much hairspringly.

Yes definitely. I’d practice on another hairspring first.

I’m still perplexed how this could happen without touching the movement....


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[Nucejoe]

I go hide myself, let Nickelsilver take responsibilty.

 

[AP1875]

Don’t worry, everything is on me. I take full responsibility for anything I do. I’m pretty good at this sort of thing, and usually get it right. I have to fully understand what the problem is and what I’m doing though and in this instance I do not, so will not be attempting anything just yet


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[Nucejoe]

Who knows, if that indeed turns out to be the fault.

For now I  bring back the stud carrer ( clockwise) as far as you can,( risk free) and observe if beat error improves.

 

[Nucejoe]

Pricy jewel, . Hard to find expensive parts.

According to NS that 15 degrees can account for huge beat error , I didn,t know that.

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, AP1875 said:

 

So, I’m definitely out of my depth here but let’s see if I can learn.

Do you mean this part highlighted in red (sorry for the dodgy arrow drawing with my finger on phone).

How do I go about resolving this? Thank you guys for all your help




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Yes that is the roller table. Visit eternaltools.com to see  movement parts illustrated and listed with corresponging names, according to eta. Some parts may have been called different names by different sources/manufacturers.

[Nucejoe]

If you are intent on trying it, I will post pictures to show you how as walkthrough.

You will be removing/repositioning the roller on staff. This should give you an idea.

Remove the ballance. Remove the HS. Grip the roller in your pin holder, slightly rotate it clock-anticlock to loosen the roller off of staff.

Reposition the roller prependiculare to spokes, tap to tighten the roller on the spokes.

Reinstall the HS so the stud is at 90 degree angle with impulse pin.

 

[AP1875]

Hi guys,

Sorry for going quiet. I found another balance for sale so I ordered it. I thought I’d wait until it arrived before I asked anymore questions.

Anyway I have it. It’s a bit old and could do with cleaning but I installed it in my movement and it works.

I put the two side by side and took some images. Apologies for the focus, this microscope has a poor resolution monitor and the tiny d.o.f at this magnification can make it hit or miss.





Looks like that jewel is slightly out of place other than that I can’t see anything. What do you guys think?



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[Nucejoe]

I am pretty sure Nickelsilver hit the nail on the head. So once you get ready to adjust the roller on the old one, I,ll be happy to work with you till fixed.

I think you like your JLC I kinda understand your passion for the jewel . I too am fond of the brand and like the jewels they make.

[AP1875]

I am pretty sure Nickelsilver hit the nail on the head. So once you get ready to adjust the roller on the old one, I,ll be happy to work with you till fixed.
I think you like your JLC I kinda understand your passion for the jewel . I too am fond of the brand and like the jewels they make.

Yes it does look different. Thanks for offering to help.

@nickelsilver does this confirm your suspicions?

I think I need to practice on some cheap Chinese 2824 movement first...


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[JohnR725]

 

On 1/26/2019 at 4:01 PM, Nucejoe said:

For now I  bring back the stud carrer ( clockwise) as far as you can,( risk free) and observe if beat error improves

Before playing with the roller did you do this suggestion which I've quoted above? It's amazing how much of a correction you can get by moving the stud holder or if somebody bumps it and it's not where it's supposed to be. So as you can understand what were suggesting you do I'm attaching an image.

Ideally you should be visually looking at the pallet fork verifying that you're in beat visually because if you're paying attention to the timing machine it's really easy to go past where you're supposed to be and get hopelessly lost. So visually need to be in beat reasonably close before you start pushing it on the timing machine.

[Nucejoe]

JohnR , Stud career is nearly all the way back ( anticlock based on your diagram)  yet impulse is not in beat, AP must be hearing     ti tic --- tic . 

I told him about getting the impulse inside the horns( in beat) he dosn,t feel comfortable to attempt now. Understandable beatiful jewel.

[watchweasol]

Hi   having read all the reply's de-power the mov't remove balance and fork then wind one turn or more as required and see if the train wheels rotate freely, It may be that having wound the movement in the first place some dirt in the barrel is blocking the M/spring, or it could be broken and slipping or even a damaged tooth some where. Doing the above will prove the power train is working, do not over power the movement with the fork removed, Look for low drive on the train