Jump to content

What Could Be Causing Low Amplitude


Lawren5

Recommended Posts

I'll just point out that eccentric bankings are a good thing, they make life much easier. Geneva Seal watches with solid bankings as part of the mainplate, numerous modern pieces with the bankings as a solid part of the pallet bridge- these make adjustments very difficult. Pressed in banking pins have to be bent in a way the functional part remains perpendicular to the plate. A pain. Anytime I've had input on a development project I recommend eccentrics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A problem in watch repair is assuming that a pocket watch is just a big version of a wristwatch. Then I'm restricting the word pocket watch to be associated with American pocket watch versus a modern Swiss pocket watch which is basically equivalent to a wristwatch.

So pocket watch repair requires a different strategy than wrist watch repair. You have to assume with 100 years of variety of types a repair that things have been changed modified or bad things have occurred unfortunately. You always have to check the escapement check the safety features checked the banking pins. You can't just assume there where there supposed to be. The balance wheel is another place of concern. Mean time screws that are now loose or even the timing screws that are either missing or different sizes. It's amazing how much bad things have occurred to American pocket watches and they're still trying to run. Then replacing parts to solve the problem isn't always the best solution. Because getting a replacement part means that you going to have to fit the part to the watch versus others to fit the watch to the part which can be a definite problem with staffs ending up with one that won't fit at all.

So start with the banking pins verify that your safety features are functional then you can deal with the stones which are definitely not the right place. It's amazing how much energy you lose with that much locking.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/13/2019 at 10:34 PM, nickelsilver said:

Traditionally American companies would use flat ends on their balance pivots. This tends to equalize the horoizontal and vertical amplitudes. It was a cause of some serious rebanking when watches were restaffed with Swiss made replacements, as they had the more typical rounded ends.

The trend of flattening the end of a balance pivot is not unique to American watch companies. The problem with the balance pivot is there tends to be less friction at the end of the pivots that on the sides. So the ends of the pivot have to be very slightly domed and I've attached a picture from a Swiss book showing how it's done.

So compared to a modern watch American balance pivots can look really quite Bad and still be functional that doesn't mean there outstandingly wonderful functional but they will function.

balance pivots End.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As requested, here are two videos of the pallet jewels interacting with the escape wheel as the balance wheel is slowly being rotated. I should note here that since my last posting, I experimented with the banking pins which appeared to be adjusted further out than needed. I brought them in a bit and the amplitude jumped from 166 to 206 degrees.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I can see the drop lock is to much, you'll want to push the stones in the fork a little bit. Use the gap at the end of the slot as a visual guide, reduce it by perhaps a third, then check drop lock again and ensure that you still have safe lock with the horn touching the guard pin (both sides).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure what was on the pallet jewel but it looked fine once I removed the pallet fork and put it under the microscope.

The next step will be to adjust the pallet jewels which will take some time. I've not worked with shellac before so I'm reading up on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/14/2019 at 10:44 AM, nickelsilver said:

Well, a few posts back I was referring to the fact that a lot of American pieces have the escapement in tatters because the thing that gets adjusted (mis-adjusted) straight away is the banking pins.

It would be worth seeking out Fried's book on the lever escapement, and I think his main book the Watch Repairer's Manual also gets into adjusting. In a nutshell: with power on the watch, balance in, stop the balance and rotate it by hand slowly just until and escape tooth falls on a pallet stone. Observe the amount of lock right at this moment, this is drop lock. Go the other way, the locks should be equal or near it and definitely not more than about 1/5-1/4 the width of the stone. Do it again, and at the moment of lock, move the fork toward the balance and check that the escapement doesn't unlock, then continue rotating the balance and continue checking. You're checking that the fork horns are supplying safety and as you continue to rotate that the guard pin is providing safety.  When all that checks out you can look at total lock. If you have an abundance of lock still when the horns are against the roller jewel and guard pin against the roller table, you can pull the pallet stones in a little bit. Go through the checks again.

Total lock is drop lock (what you saw above) plus the run to the banking, which is what the fork does after drop lock. There must be some run to the banking. Drop lock must be safe. Now you can get to your banking pins. If the total lock is more than about 1/3 the width of the stone, you can close the banking a bit. Check that you still have run to the banking, and that there is freedom between the fork horns and roller jewel and the guard pin and roller table at all times.

Keep in mind that moving a stone affects the other. If you move the entrance stone into the fork, you will reduce drop lock on that stone, and on the exit stone. Total lock will be reduced on the entrance and be unchanged on the exit. Pulling the stone out will increase drop lock on both stones, total lock on the entrance, and total still remains the same on exit. And vice-versa if moving the exit stone

Hi Nickelsilver, I am trying to learn as you show lawren how to adjust pallets, the terms drop lock , total lock ....etc remain undefined to me and moving pallets on instlled fork is not easy, please advice or better yet I wish you make this a lesson walkthrough posted for all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/14/2019 at 10:44 AM, nickelsilver said:

Well, a few posts back I was referring to the fact that a lot of American pieces have the escapement in tatters because the thing that gets adjusted (mis-adjusted) straight away is the banking pins.

It would be worth seeking out Fried's book on the lever escapement, and I think his main book the Watch Repairer's Manual also gets into adjusting. In a nutshell: with power on the watch, balance in, stop the balance and rotate it by hand slowly just until and escape tooth falls on a pallet stone. Observe the amount of lock right at this moment, this is drop lock. Go the other way, the locks should be equal or near it and definitely not more than about 1/5-1/4 the width of the stone. Do it again, and at the moment of lock, move the fork toward the balance and check that the escapement doesn't unlock, then continue rotating the balance and continue checking. You're checking that the fork horns are supplying safety and as you continue to rotate that the guard pin is providing safety.  When all that checks out you can look at total lock. If you have an abundance of lock still when the horns are against the roller jewel and guard pin against the roller table, you can pull the pallet stones in a little bit. Go through the checks again.

Total lock is drop lock (what you saw above) plus the run to the banking, which is what the fork does after drop lock. There must be some run to the banking. Drop lock must be safe. Now you can get to your banking pins. If the total lock is more than about 1/3 the width of the stone, you can close the banking a bit. Check that you still have run to the banking, and that there is freedom between the fork horns and roller jewel and the guard pin and roller table at all times.

Keep in mind that moving a stone affects the other. If you move the entrance stone into the fork, you will reduce drop lock on that stone, and on the exit stone. Total lock will be reduced on the entrance and be unchanged on the exit. Pulling the stone out will increase drop lock on both stones, total lock on the entrance, and total still remains the same on exit. And vice-versa if moving the exit stone

Hi Nickelsilver, I am trying to learn as you show lawren how to adjust pallets, the terms drop lock , total lock ....etc remain undefined to me and moving pallets on instlled fork is not easy, please advice or better yet I wish you make this a lesson walkthrough posted for all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,  Nickelsilvers theoretical and practical advice with regard to your low amplitude is 100% first class. He is obviously very skilled indeed. However  I must point out that the last time I had a problem like this it was with a wrist watch and caused by me putting a touch of 9010 on the pallet pivots !!  Re-cleaning the bearings here gave another 80 deg ! amplitude. I have always been a stickler for a molecule or two of oil but NEVER on the pallet pivots again which only rotate a very few degrees and need to be free. Old Hippy sorted this for me. Thank you. Mike. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been following this thread and found it mostly interesting.Low amplitude can be caused by several things but if it isn't that a pivot that broke of they mostly have one thing in common, friction.

To have an genuine understanding in what is happening in the escapement and what could cause the low amplitude one have to understand the function of it. So I always urge people to go the long way and get a thorough understanding in what is happening in the area you are fault finding . Sometimes one gets lucky and it is just a easy fix with cleaning and correct lubrication, another time it's crocked banking pins or loose/damage pallets.

About oiling the pallets I never used to do it until I watched one of Marks videos where he showed how to put a small amount of oil on the pallets face, run the escapement for a couple of turns and after that removing the pallet fork and cleaning of the excess oil from it and after that putting it back again. This method works like a charm for me.

I put a small PDF together so the less gifted like me can follow the discussion in this thread and maybe get a better understanding of what Nickelsilver and the boys/girls are talking about.

The Escapement function.pdf

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/15/2019 at 10:59 AM, nickelsilver said:

Ideally you do these checks looking straight down at the movement under a microscope. You won't see the horns or guard pin interacting with the roller, use an oiler to move fork and feel when it makes contact and observe the pallet stones.



Yes, that is some Lock all right !  I am surprised that the watch runs. Low balance amplitude, I reckon so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, HSL said:

I've been following this thread and found it mostly interesting.Low amplitude can be caused by several things but if it isn't that a pivot that broke of they mostly have one thing in common, friction.

To have an genuine understanding in what is happening in the escapement and what could cause the low amplitude one have to understand the function of it. So I always urge people to go the long way and get a thorough understanding in what is happening in the area you are fault finding . Sometimes one gets lucky and it is just a easy fix with cleaning and correct lubrication, another time it's crocked banking pins or loose/damage pallets.

About oiling the pallets I never used to do it until I watched one of Marks videos where he showed how to put a small amount of oil on the pallets face, run the escapement for a couple of turns and after that removing the pallet fork and cleaning of the excess oil from it and after that putting it back again. This method works like a charm for me.

I put a small PDF together so the less gifted like me can follow the discussion in this thread and maybe get a better understanding of what Nickelsilver and the boys/girls are talking about.

The Escapement function.pdf

HSL thank you for the good work preparing this pdf, illustrates parameters involved, to likes of me with no classical education on the subject. I suggest this to be posted under a topic of its own searchable by subject. Very neccessary and helpful. Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Just to close out this thread concerning low amplitude, I finally got around to addressing the issue of too much lock. The pallet stones were probably not original as they were already set back into the pallet fork as far as they could go. I removed the pallet stones, ground down the back ends, reinserted them and applied shellac. After making some adjustments, the amplitude jumped from the initial 166 to 265 degrees.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • in general this shouldn't be any change. but in general questions like this it be nice to know the specifics of the watch in other words how was it performing before it was cased up and what is it doing now.
    • just as a reminder this watch is a Swatch group product. This will bring up a problem like spare parts and technical information. that I found some links to some information on when I talk about your watch and some of the technical and basically your watch is equivalent to 2834-2 for which I'm attaching the technical sheets. But equivalent does not mean exactly the same you want to do a search on the group for C07 as we discussed this watch before including the technical differences how it's supposed to be regulated and basically because it's watch group there is no parts availability. https://calibercorner.com/eta-caliber-c07-xxx/   https://www.chrono24.com/magazine/eta-movements-from-the-2824-2-to-the-powermatic-80-p_80840/ https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/h-10-movement-details.4636991/ eta CT_2834-2_FDE_481857_15.pdf
    • people be honest.... Swatch is evil for the watchmakers and repairers, BUT not everything in watches from Switzerland is from the Swatch-Group. As far as i know, Selitta got sacked by Swatch as a Movement-Assembler for them and they started to produce Movements in their own Name with slight Modifications. As far as i know, they sell Parts to the Market for their Movements. In most cases, if a ETA-Movement fails, it is a valid Option to replace it with a Selitta Movement, which i consider the Solution for this Mess with the Swatch-Group...... I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.   ok ? regards, Ernst
    • Just one more greedy act by Swatch. They started a number of years ago here in the US..cutting off supplies to watchmakers that could build complications that many Swatch houses couldn't even touch. Old school masters who had gone through some of the most prestigious houses in the world. Otto Frei has some statements on their page about it. I tell all my customers to avoid new Swiss watches like the plague,..unless they just want an older one in their collection that still has some parts out on the market, or they have really deep pockets and don't mind waiting months and paying through the nose to get it back. Plenty of others to choose from..IE Seiko,..or other non-swiss brands Even a number of Chinese brands are catching up with the Swiss,..and I think that in time, their actions will be their downfall
    • Yes. If that's not what you are experiencing...start looking for something rubbing. A 1st guess is that one of the hands is rubbing against the hole in the center of the dial. Especially if you now have lower amplitude in face up/ face down positions.
×
×
  • Create New...