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JhBd

Problem with Seiko Kinetic 5M42-0C99/Hattori YT57 Movement

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Hello everyone,

I'm very new to this. Live out in the country, no where near a watchmaker. Tried Youtube videos with no luck. I have a 20 year old Seiko Kinetic(model in Title). It's my favorite watch. The winder weight(please forgive, I don't know proper terminology yet) "spot welds" broke. I found a new part at Cas-Ker and can fix this part. The main problem is the "Seiko" logo broke off and I can't figure out how to get the crown out of this particular movement so I can get it out of the case and reattach the logo. I'm sure if I don't fix this issue it will get jammed up in the hands and possibly destroy the movement. Would really appreciate some advice. Thank you

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Do you have the parts catalog for your movement? If not, try finding a copy on one of the various watch sites. A lot of Seiko documentation is available, especially for older movements.  

 

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If you haven't had any luck finding the release button for the winding stem on this type of watch I can point you in the right direction.
If look by the winding stem you see a small pin sticking up, usually one would think you should press on that one but no.
Right beside it you see a small slot, push a thin dull needle into the slot marked out with a yellow arrow in the picture.. voila' the winding stem gest loose.

Seiko release.jpg

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Hello everyone,

I'm so very grateful to all who responded to my post. I had only tried this one other time on another website regarding tractors and no one responded. I didn't have a chance to try any of your suggestions until this afternoon. I learned I need to post pictures next time. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings who posted but a special "thank you" to TexasDon and HSL. With the link TexasDon posted and the picture and description HSL posted I was able to get the crown out in seconds with no problems. I haven't had time to attached the Seiko logo yet but with the movement out I don't anticipate any more problems. You guys are all awesome. I can't thank you enough for your help. I just read the Welcome email that suggested I introduce myself first. Sorry I didn't to that. I'm a 55 year old ex-electrical engineer and gunsmith. Was diagnosed w/ a crippling joint disease at 42 which ended my engineering career and most of my gunsmithing. Diagnosed with another disease that is destroying the protective sheaths over my nerves about 8 years ago. I really like working w/ my hands but most of my body doesn't work well anymore and is accompanied by constant severe pain. Thank you all again. I may need your assistance again. You are all very kind to take your time to help someone else. It seems rare these days.

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I'm happy to hear you are making progress with your watch project and I'm sure the most of the people in this forum is eager to help a fellow watch enthusiast with their different challenges during a life long learning quest in horology.
 

Thanks for your introduction and I'm sorry to hear about your conditions , the god thing about watch repairing is that it can be done whenever one is up to it and it doesn't have to happen over night. So take care and don't hesitate to ask for any advice you need, the most people here are very helpful.
 

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Thanks again. I really appreciate your help. I have a new profound appreciation for watchmakers, horologists, etc. I thought gun parts were small sometimes. They are huge compared to watch parts. All you guys must have nerves of a surgeon and incredible memories to work on these things. Everything is tiny. Thankfully I do have a good magnifying visor and good lighting. My tools for working on guns are expensive and many kinda small but not near small enough.

I do have one quick question if you have time. That Seiko logo I'm still trying to replace has 2 small pins on the back that fit into corresponding holes on the face. Should I just press it in or put a tiny amount of epoxy to ensure it doesn't come out again. I'm waiting until Monday to finish it? My wife is an operating room nurse and is able to borrow a tiny pair of tweezers(they call them forceps) to hold the logo to get it in place.

Thanks in advance. You have been so helpful to me.

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There are some differences in techniques between manufacturers, on most vintage Swiss they are riveted in place with those two pins.
But now I have looked at two Seiko Kinectic and on both they have been glued from behind. A small dropp of some kind of superglue have been applied onto the pins keeping the logo in place. I guess that's why it gets loose when the glue degenerates.
I would probably do the same again since the pins are too flimsy with too little material to rivet with.
So with a small needle apply a really tiny drop of superglue from the back of the dial.

Edited by HSL
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...and make sure those tweezers get cleaned before they go back into the theatre!

In fact, I would be inclined not to use tweezers to hold the logo in place. Dials are incredibly easy to scratch and impossible to touch up. They also show up fingerprints so I would use finger cots to avoid marking the dial and hold it in place by hand. Superglue will dry quick enough that you won’t be there for long and as HSL says, apply with a small needle or pin - you really need just the tiniest amount.

If you don’t have finger cots then maybe you could track down some surgical gloves from somewhere...

Not sure if it is clear from the posts above, but the pins should really be glued from the back of the dial. That does mean hands and dial off the watch, which is fiddly, but relatively simple surgery and there are some good videos on line. If you aren’t up for that, then the tiniest, tiniest drop of glue in the holes before you insert the pins should be ok. If you try to put the glue on the pins it will likely scrape up them and end up spreading onto the dial.

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Thanks so much for both of the responses. To StuartBaker104: I should have clarified about the borrowed tweezers. They have some example tools the dr.'s look at to order by that they can borrow. These haven't and will never be used in a surgery. That was comical to me. I understood your concern. Sorry about that.

I really appreciate the advice. I'll look at the videos of taking the hands off before I attempt. I had no idea they were glued from behind. I've worked on so many things in my life but not the "guts" of a watch. Replaced dials, link pins and other simple things. Even the little things, like suggesting wear cots or gloves(I do have several thicknesses of nitrile gloves), that you all take for granite is a big help to me.

If I think tackling taking the hands off is too much I may just put a tiny drop in each hole and go that route.

Sorry for another question. If you don't use tweezers or some tool how do you hold something that tiny to get it into place?

Thanks again to you both. Every comment anyone makes I learn something.

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Hi JhBd,

I wasn’t really concerned about the tweezers going back to a surgery - we don’t take things too seriously here!

I would hold the logo with a product called Rodico. Quite commonly used in watch repair for cleaning or tidying up a drop of oil that landed in the wrong spot, but also good for temporarily holding awkward shaped parts.

If you have BluTack then that would be ok for this, but I don’t know if that’s really a common product in the US. Over here it’s what kids use to stick posters to their walls - in theory it comes off walls really easily, but if you leave it too long it really doesn’t and at best leaves oily marks behind.

Tweezers would be probably fine for handling the logo and getting into place, as long as you are super careful not to touch the dial surface with them. Once it’s in place you should be able to push it into the holes and hold it there with a suitably covered finger.

 

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One interesting part with watch repair is the bit of tips and tricks one get from such a wide variety of people as in this forum.
I realize you will have a ton of questions as you proceed with your project. 
To glue anything from the front on a dial isn't a easy task to pull off, hence why they glue it from the back on the factory, it is a too big risk in failing with applying the right amount of glue. Just wee too much and the dial and the logo is trash.
So to answer as many questions as possible at once I have made a small walk through on a similar watch I found in one of my project boxes. Unfortunately I could with a quick look see what was wrong with it and why it was left to be unloved. Even though the case and dial is different the logo and the movement in these are the same.
Here is the walk through in PDF format, just so you get a feel of the task ahead and what tools are needed. As for the tool bit you soon will get a feel of which is in your taste and which you prefer to modify to fit just you.

And remember this isn't the ultimate way, just one that works for me.

 

A quick and dirty walkthrough of fixing a loose Seiko logo on a Kinect.pdf

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StuartBaker104: I did easily find the Rodico after you told me what it was. I saw someone using it in a video but I guess they assumed everyone watching knew what it was. I didn't. Thank you.

I really am floored that you all would take time out of your lives to help me with this. HSL: the pdf is outstanding. Can't believe you took that much time to help me. It answered many questions about tools, how to get the face and hands off, put them back correctly and everything else. btw, I didn't think it was "quick and dirty" at all. Very thorough to me.I didn't want to ruin my watch but couldn't find anyone close by to fix it. I'm limited on my ability to travel far. Now you all have given me an excellent starting point so I don't feel like I'm totally flying blind. I have to acquire a few more tools. Now I'm exited to see if I can find some broken watches to try and fix. Something I can do with all these physical limitations to help feel useful again.

If you don't mind another question. Any suggestions on a good source for tools that are not junk but not so expensive they're out of reach? I don't mind paying for a quality tool. Just don't like getting ripped off.

You are incredible people. I was raised to put others first as it seems you guys were. I have found how very few friends I really did have when I became unable to do things for them.  I can't say "Thank you" enough to everyone that has responded!

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There is a collection of links for tools and stuff on this site, check it out.
https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/links/watch-clock-repair-suppliers/united-states/
I mix tools from lots of suppliers, during the years one grow fond of a certain style. Guess it the same in the gun smith business.
But as a starter Horotec is a good brand to start with and then just go from there and try out a little bit of this and that from different sources. 

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HSL, thank you for the link. That helps a lot.

I've looked at some watch tools on Amazon. There may be some good ones among the junk but w/o any experience it's hard to tell even with the reviews. Same w/ gunsmithing tools. Companies recommended by people like you that know the business is a much better way to go for me.

Thank you again.

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Where to buy your tools and how much to spend is a very complex question!

Really it all depends... do you see this job as a one off, or do you want to build a new hobby? How much can you afford, how quickly do you want to get what you need? How do you value time versus money? Do you have the facilities and abilities to make some of what you need?

HSL did a great walkthrough, but you could almost do this job with no specialist tools. The only thing that is an absolute must is good magnification.

I think you already have the movement out of the case.

I have used a pair of penknife blades to remove hands. Mark (site admin) has a video of a 7750 repair on YouTube using hand levers which are pretty easy to make and a plastic bag as a dial protector.

Case cushions and bech mats are nice. Offcuts of table protectors are functional.

Movement holders make life easier, but not essential for this job

Hand pressers make life easier, but you can use the open end of the plastic refill out of a cheap biro as a substitute (for larger hands the plastic tube from a cotton bud)

If you have those borrowed tweezers, fix a small strip of latex rubber to the inside of the tips with double sided tape, or apply a small strip of electrical insulating tape to the tips to make sure they won’t scratch anything.

So you see there are many options here, but improvising may take a little longer.

If you want to play more and want to buy some tools, then Bergeon, Horotec and AF are all good brands. Start with #2 and #5 tweezers, a set of screwdrivers, a movement holder and 5x and 10 or 12x loupes, and work from there. If you can wait, then scour eBay. Buy a good book on the basics like the ones by DeCarle or Gazeley and they will show you how to make some more simple tools and tell you what the ones you will come across are used for.

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Hey StuartBaker104,

Sorry for the delayed response. Our phone and internet service have been down all day until now.

That is great advice. I figured you had to have that tool to remove the hands for even pressure. I'll try to find the video you referred to using hand levers(don't know what they are yet but since you say they're pretty easy to make I'll probably go that route). I have lots of tools for gunsmithing. Most are too large but with the knowledge it's ok to improvise I can definitely make do until I can get some other tools.

Can you expound on what you are referring to re: the hand pressers? Sorry I don't know what a biro is. I'm assuming a cotton bud is what we call a q-tip. If that's correct ours have a solid hard rolled paper shaft. Could something like a plastic ink pen with the pen part removed work?

I have another broken quartz watch that I figured was just gone. I really didn't even think replacing the movement was an option. Tried a new battery that checked good w/ my multi-meter but it still doesn't work.

Back to the Seiko at hand. I'm just a little nervous trying things because I'm so uneducated about watches and don't want to ruin this one. My original problem was the clasp was broken. It took me a long time but finally found a replacement. I thought that would be fairly easy but turned out to be worse than I thought. The pins are about .75mm in diameter. I used a small drill bit placed shaft side down in my drill press and pressed them out with difficulty. I don't have any punches smaller than 1/16". The problem now is putting them back. There is a section in the middle of each pin that is larger than the hole in the clasp and is serrated for lack of a better term. I'm not sure if I can press them through the sides of the clasp w/out breaking something. I attached a picture. The middle image is the broken clasp. The bottom image shows the new clasp w/ the pin just started in. The hole in the clasp is .008" smaller than the middle part of the pin. Is it ok to press it through? I hope this makes sense.

Would appreciate any feedback from anyone or everyone still watching and helping me.

Thanks so much for your reply StuartBaker104. Lots of great advice.

 

306388130_SeikoWatchClasp.JPG.e5b9a6cbc655e48c09ce259fbc8b8a3d.JPG

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Some bracelet pins are extremely tight. The key to fitting them is a very straight controlled push or tap. I purchased one of these cheap Chinese pin removers and it works surprisingly well. 

2009400217_ScreenShot2019-01-02at08_53_00.png.2702edd9886e8e050108188a5f79856b.png

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Hey clockboy,

Thank you for that. I did purchase a cheap tool very similar to yours for the regular link pins a few years ago. As you said mine works well for those even though some are tight.

The pin shown in the bottom picture I posted has a knurled(kind of, the cuts on it are straight and not cross cut like knurling) middle section that is larger than the rest of the pin. It was extremely tight even after soaking in penetrating oil for 3 days. I had a really hard time getting it out using a floor model drill press as a press of sorts.

When I tried to put them back I discovered the middle part is actually larger than the holes in the clasp also, not just larger than the hole in the raised section that is part of the band that the clasp end goes on each side of. Not sure how much force to use to press the pins back in. I wasn't able to find those type replacement pins when I found the new clasp. Afraid I'll be "up a creek" if I break the pins.

I'm really sorry this is being such a pain to all who are helping me but I sincerely appreciate all the advice everyone has given.

Thank you to everyone!

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OK if you visit the Cousins web site they sell pins and tubes of various styles and sizes for repairing bracelets. It would be best if you acquired their catalogue to see the full range. I recently repaired a Rolex strap using one of their bracelet tubes. 

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Sorry for the lack of translation B)

Biro = cheap ball point pen with a plastic tube full of ink, like this

13BDAB98-B68A-4E31-9859-5CF0AD042693.thumb.jpeg.d251c3d493791a6d0d248d97e0aafe9d.jpeg

And here is a description of how to use: http://bestwatchbrandshq.com/how-to-change-seiko-7s26-watch-hands-the-macgyver-way/

Cotton bud = q-tip, and yes, there are fewer with plastic tube type centres these days

About 45 seconds into this video you will see hand levers in use https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/watch_repair_videos.html/watch-movement-servicing-stripdowns/breitling-valjoux-7750-chronograph-stripdown-r14/

Something like this won’t break the bank if you don’t want to make your own https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watchmakers-lever-type-Watch-hands-removers-replace-tool-repair-set-of-2/300723525342?epid=1188272030&hash=item460484d6de:g:6jgAAOSwZd1VcvnJ

I bought a cheap chinese version of the ones in HSLs walkthrough once and they are useless for small watches and difficult to modify without drilling out the rivets to dismantle.

 

 

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No problem on translation. Everyone else probably knew right away.

Thank you for all the great info. The description was very helpful and that stripdown of the Breitling was amazing to watch. And I thought some firearms were complicated. Even the most complex are simple compared to some of these watches.

I think I will order that set of levers on ebay. As I mentioned previously I'm going to try to repair an Invicta quartz that was a gift after I get this Seiko fixed. I think a new movement will be needed but that's another topic.

I feel bad asking another question after you've put so much effort into helping me. In my last post responding to you I added a picture of the band and link pin along w/ a description. Do you have any advice re: pressing those particular type pins in?

Thanks again for all your help.

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