Recommendation For Watchmaker Lathe

[bobm12]

Hi everyone,

 

I know nothing about watchmaker's lathes -- although I have worked on regular, vintage ones -- and I'm looking for a recommendation and as much information one them. The goal is to get one in the very, very near future. Please help!

 

PS. I'll also appreciate information about compatibility of parts/tools for them. Thank you in advance.

 

Bob

[Geo]

Hi Bob,

Make sure that you buy a watchmakers and not a small modelmakers lathe. There are a few good makes to choose from, Boley, Lorch, Levin, Pultra and Rolls Royce of lathes Schaublin. Whatever you go for make sure that it is in excellent condition and with as many collets and attachments as possible. The reason I say this is to purchase the attachment separately will cost a lot of money.

Lathes such as Unimat are excellent for modelmakers, but do not have such a comprehensive selection of collets and attachments that you will require for doing watch repairs.

I have a Boley Lienen WW bed lathe and attachments. If you check out this http://lathes.co.uk/leinentradwatchmaker/ and http://www.lathes.co.uk/leinenmodern/ you will get some idea of the sort of things available. If you go to the homepage of the link, you will be able to look up information on just about any lathe, both large and small.

[bobm12]

Thank you Geo, as always a great answer. I'll check out the links right after this message.

[bobm12]

Went there and...found lots of things I wasn't counting on. It is so complicated I'm not sure if I should buy it now. Maybe later when I understand more about watchmaking...considering it is a substantial investment and my space is limited. but I still would like the most information about it as possible so I'll keep getting into it little by little.

 

Thanks Geo, those were excellent links.

[Geo]

Glad to have been of assistance Bob!

[anilv]

Hi Bob, if you're buying new, look for a vendor near you, they can provide valuable guidance. You will also be needing tool steel and raw stock and these guys will be able to put you in touch with the right people (if they don't stock it themselves). They also supply stuff like cutting fluid etc.

 

Anil

[bobm12]

Thank you Anil,

 

That's good advise. I didn't think of those details (raw stock, etc). I'll try to find a local vendor!

[jnash]

Anyone know of anyone selling one. Am looking on ebay but nothing at the moment takes my fancy.  Looking for something heavily armed with attachments for drilling and pivot work. 

 

Having sold my larger lathe im looking for a 8mm to focus on balance work (well attempt it anyway)

 

was looking at the chinese lathes which i have heard are quite good but need some refinishing but would like to look for a swiss one before i look down that avenue.

 

Many thanks

Jonathan

[clockboy]

Ebay is a good source but in my opinion the condition of the lathe & it,s bearings should be a consideration. I purchased my "Star" lathe at a watch & clock fair because of what I have mentioned. 

[jnash]

thanks clockboy, i would rather see before i buy - hence asking here.  The next clock fair is a month away and its in birmingham - i dont think i can wait until the next one in Brunel , not to mention its not very good!

 

Ill keep on looking , thanks for your reply

[Alaskamick]

Hi jnash, a little off the subject but can I ask if the clock fair in Bham is worth going to and where is it held.

 

Thanks, Mike

[jnash]

Hi Mike

 

Others will have to chime in but its definately the bigger one, the one in brunel is tiny are really poor in my opinion.

 

Google clock and watch fairs and your see their site.

[rogart63]

This looks like it is a nice lathe. But have now idea if the price is right. Bidding starts a $700 and buy it now for $1411 . Have seen it some time so i think one could get it for $700. http://www.tradera.com/item/1922/251858231/urmakarsvarv-flume-f53. Would cost a lot to ship though? 

[jnash]

ive seen a few on here but not sure how it works (im in the UK)

 

Plus if im going to buy abroad i would use paypal just in case i get a empty box.....or nothing at all!

Edited February 17, 2016 by jnash

[clockboy]

There is this guy I think his name is Malcolm. Very knowledgeable and is at most of the fairs. I have purchased off him worth checking as he does not sell anything thats not good. 

 

http://pennyfarthingtools.co.uk

[jnash]

There is this guy I think his name is Malcolm. Very knowledgeable and is at most of the fairs. I have purchased off him worth checking as he does not sell anything thats not good. 

 

http://pennyfarthingtools.co.uk

 

first person i emailed  :D

[Eastwaykid]

Hi Jonathan,I bought my 'Star' on eBay, had to wait quite a while before a good one turned up (no pun intended)a BTM was also on my short list but the Star came along first,I was fortunate enough to go on a short course 'Introduction to the watchmakers lathe' at EFHC by John Hatt and he was an advocate of the Star lathe ,think Cousins have new ones listed so as a company they are still going, must say I'm very pleased with my purchase.

Be patient,ask the seller for extra pics and ask questions.

There are some good books out there on the subject by :

H.Jendritzki

Archie Perkins

George Daniels

Mick Watters

Donald Dr Carle

Good luck

Peter

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

[jnash]

Thanks all ... made the dive for the chinese one.. lets see if i made the right choice or not.. its coming fully loadeed.. 

 

also eastwaykid, have all the books you've mention, just not perkins one as its sooo expensive.

 

Keep you all posted.

 

Thanks

[clockboy]

Thanks all ... made the dive for the chinese one.. lets see if i made the right choice or not.. its coming fully loadeed.. 

 

also eastwaykid, have all the books you've mention, just not perkins one as its sooo expensive.

 

Keep you all posted.

 

Thanks

You will be pleased for sure. For the price they are a bargain the only issue is how long they last but that is a unknown quantity. 

[david]

BobM12,

The biggest problem with most watchmaker lathes is that most of the companies that manufactured them are no longer in business. This means that finding quality accessories can be a bit of a problem. Eight millimeter collets are still manufactured but six millimeter collets are not. There are a number of used Wolf-Jahn and lorch 6mm lathes available for a reasonable price but finding collets for them can be a matter of blind luck. To the best of my knowledge the only companies who manufactured watchmaker lathes in the past that are still in business are LEVIN, DERBYSHIRE, STAR and DIXIE (marketed under the BERGEON name. I don't know how long the SINCERE brand has been out there but they currently make a high quality lathe. Both DERBYSHIRE and LEVIN have shifted over to a slightly larger instrument size lathe but the precision and quality of these machines is so fantastic (20-50 millionths of an inch spindle runout),  they can certainly be used to make watch parts. As a matter of note both of these machines use ultra precision ball bearing headstocks while the Star, Dixie (Bergeon) and Sincere use the old fashioned cone bearings. While cone bearings are not as accurate as ABEC 7 OR ABEC 9 ball bearings, they have enough accuracy to make suitable watch parts. 

This brings the selection down to availability and affordability. Any of these five currently manufactured lathes can make suitable quality watch parts. Out of the five the Sincere lathe is the most affordable as are its accessories.

As an example a  Sincere milling attachment is less than $400.00 while a Bergeon milling attachment is around $7000.00. Both milling attachments are light duty accessories that lead to deflection problems under a cutter load. A 175 pound Harbor Freight (CENTRAL MACHINERY) bench top mini mill (once tweaked in and adjusted) will cut better than a watchmaker lathe milling attachment. The mini mill has more size, mass and power than the watchmaker lathe accessory, so the cutter is more likely to go where you want it to go.

If I were to give a recommendation it would be to stay away from machines with  aluminum beds. Aluminum headstocks are stable but aluminum beds can cause deflection and/or wear problems.  This is true for lathes but especially true for milling machines. Aluminum is not as rigid as steel and tends to bend more easily under a load. Cone bearings are OK but you have to learn how to clean and adjust them. You also have  to run them at lower speeds. Modern ball bearings are more accurate to several magnitudes and can run much faster than cone bearings.  

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth.

david

[jdm]

Sincere is the Chinese isn't? An entry from the Internet http://watchmakingblog.com/2008/02/18/watchmakers-lathe-made-in-china/

[vinn3]

a milling machine is more important than the lathe, for general use.   take your time to find a good one.

[david]

JDM,

The Sincere is also marketed by a German company under the name VECTOR. The VECTOR comes in a beautiful wooden box and the SINCERE comes in a cardboard box packed in foam. The VECTOR costs a lot more than the SINCERE but does not have the advertising stigma of "made in China" attached to it. Other than that, once they are set up and adjusted properly, both machines can make good parts. 

A few years ago I read an article on the NAWCC web page written by someone who purchased a HORIA  Lathe. Apparently he paid a lot of money for the machine, but unfortunately,  the tailstock did not line up with the spindle. He shipped it back to Horia and they shipped it back to him with the same problem. In short, he was stuck with an expensive designer label machine that did not function properly.  I do not own a Horia lathe but I do own a set of Horia turns and they seem to work properly.  I believe that the most important aspect in a machine is that it functions properly for the job at hand or it does not. Trying to select a machine based on its brand name can sometimes lead to a bad place. If you are unable to fix the problem you just may end up with an expensive door stop.

david

PS:   I failed to mention the HORIA LATHE because I forgot about it. This means that there are 6 companies that currently manufacture watchmaker lathes.

[Geo]

2 hours ago, vinn3 said:

a milling machine is more important than the lathe, for general use.

That's a sweeping statement that I don't agree with Vinn.  It very much depends on what you intend making or repairing.

[jdm]

David, what are "turns"? There are a lot of terms in machining which I don't know (English is not even my language). I've lost my chance to learn it when i dropped out of professional school, but that saved my sanity. I still want to make or repair parts, perhaps I should switch to clockmaking and do with one of these toy lathes I mentioned in another thread