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10 hours ago, Wdc said:

5 mins -  91% alcohol rinse

This is ok for most watch parts but I wouldn't use it for balance wheel or pallet fork as both these components have jewels glued in place using shellac which is soluble in alcohol.

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It's OK to rinse in alcohol but it will dissolve the shellac if left long enough- 5 mins would certainly soften it. Try rinsing in distilled water after cleaning, then in alcohol (which will basically remove the water), but only leave the balance/fork maybe 30 seconds.

I don't know about lacquer thinner, but it sounds to me like your ammonia percentage is too high. I use a clock cleaner that has about 100ml, ~ half a cup, of 24% ammonia (quite strong, yes) to 4 liters of liquid. In this mix the ammonia reacts with oleic acid forming a soap, so the ammonia effect is even less pronounced. In a strong ammonia solution you'll see it has a rather severe effect on brass parts and can start to strip plating as well if left long enough. Also, 15 mins should be plenty of time in the cleaner.

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  i believe, any solvent will desove shellac.  thats why you remove those parts before cleaning.   at one time, paint thinner and lighter fluid were the only solvents available (or cheeep) for "cleaning".    for manual cleaning,  iso  alchol is available,  at the chemist,  usially at 75% solution.  and the warning "do not drink".   it is the best solvent for oil or grease.     if you buy a cleaning machine;   use their sugested cleaners.    cheers.  vin

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26 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

  i believe, any solvent will desove shellac.  thats why you remove those parts before cleaning.   at one time, paint thinner and lighter fluid were the only solvents available (or cheeep) for "cleaning".    for manual cleaning,  iso  alchol is available,  at the chemist,  usially at 75% solution.  and the warning "do not drink".   it is the best solvent for oil or grease.     if you buy a cleaning machine;   use their sugested cleaners.    cheers.  vin

A little off topic but..

Not all solvents work the same way. Alcohol is what is known as a polar solvent, hydrocarbons (like naphtha) are nonpolar solvents.

Polar solvents are great for dissolving ionic compounds (which is why they are good for drying water off components).

Nonpolar solvents are great for dissolving oils and greases (which is why they are great for cleaning)

Generally speaking things that are highly soluble in polar solvents are much less so in nonpolar solvents, which is why shellac is perfectly safe in (nonpolar) cleaning solutions but very much at risk in (polar) solvents like alcohol.

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21 minutes ago, Marc said:

A little off topic but..

Not all solvents work the same way. Alcohol is what is known as a polar solvent, hydrocarbons (like naphtha) are nonpolar solvents.

Polar solvents are great for dissolving ionic compounds (which is why they are good for drying water off components).

Nonpolar solvents are great for dissolving oils and greases (which is why they are great for cleaning)

Generally speaking things that are highly soluble in polar solvents are much less so in nonpolar solvents, which is why shellac is perfectly safe in (nonpolar) cleaning solutions but very much at risk in (polar) solvents like alcohol.

    alcohol is the simple answer.  if not sure consult a chemist.

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As always thanks for the advice.

A couple quick qualifications

I was estimating at the quantities in my #2 solution. I generally pour everything into a bucket and dump it into the cleaner. I may have estimated my Ammonia a bit high likely somewhere between ½-1 cup. I do understand there is a diminishing return where brass will tarnish black. Thankfully I discovered this on tools not watch parts, something easily buffed out.

This discussion has uncovered a BIG oversight on my part, the “Pallet Wheel Jewel” . the whole reason I leave out the pallet fork is the jewel and shellac. Point taken on a shortening the alcohol rinse. It may even be good practice to stop re-attaching the balance to the bottom plate and running it though the Ultrasonic cleaner (USC) as I have seen many do. Dip the balance and HS into a solvent to degrease, quick alcohol rinse and call it good. I like an alcohol rinse because of the quick evaporation and at 91% there is very little water to corrode and/or stain. Hit it with a little defused hot air from a heat-gun  and it’s almost instantaneous.

Whereas everyone has a good point @vinn3 raises an important on solvent classifications polar and nonpolar. I am sure Lacquer Thinner (LT) falls into polar along with alcohol. I’ll need to do more research on the two categories to understand them better and ID what fall where.

In closing I would like to say that @oldhippy point is well taken.  After doing more research on watch cleaning solutions, including Lacquer Thinner on a number of watch sites, it is clear this can be a charged subject. Ironically, I did find someone that writes he’s been using LT for year with great results but he did warn, "do not to run it in the USC and heat it". Heating it is common since and my experience is you don’t need to, it degreases fast at room temp.

Lastly @Nucejoe had a good point, run some test. When I decided to take up this hobby, I purchased 65 misc. movements, so I have plenty to test with. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding…lol

Thanks again to all

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/8/2018 at 2:03 AM, clockboy said:

Perhaps you are being a bit pedantic. The ultrasonic machine I was referring too was the Elma "P' Line (Industrial use) Multi-Frequency & digital. Starting price £775. 

Hi, will you disclose the frequencies your ultrasonic  machine produces. That would give an idea what range to shop for. Many thanks.

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I can't think of a chemical reaction that would take place between the chrome (or other metal plating) and the solvent directly, but any lacquers, varnishes or other protective finishes may well be affected.

Also it occurs to me that when it evaporates, the solvent may leave behind a residue of less volatile "stuff" that was dissolved and then re-deposited after the solvent has flashed off. In other words, you may have varnished the metal with some random dissolved dirt. See if the pale marks rub off.

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59 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

I can't think of a chemical reaction that would take place between the chrome (or other metal plating) and the solvent directly, but any lacquers, varnishes or other protective finishes may well be affected.

Also it occurs to me that when it evaporates, the solvent may leave behind a residue of less volatile "stuff" that was dissolved and then re-deposited after the solvent has flashed off. In other words, you may have varnished the metal with some random dissolved dirt. See if the pale marks rub off

For watch repair, The solvent penetration through the pores of plating and reaction with the basemetal underneath, is the issue of concren. This effect often gets visibly evident upon long time exposures day/ weeks. I think long terms effect of short term exppsure can safely be dismissed. Ligher fluid has so far ( twenty seven days exposure) shown inert. 

 

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On 8/29/2018 at 8:30 AM, Watchtime said:

a friend of mine who is a professional watchmaker in germany uses isopropanol for mvts, nothing else.

 

I haven't followed this thread in detail but in my experience isopropanol dissolves the shellac pretty quickly. I've ruined a few pallet forks that way forgetting to pick'em up quickly enough from my final rinse.

BTW, is the correct terminology "shellac" or "resin"? I believe Mark Lovick uses the term resin.

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I know this thread is about cleaning solutions, but I'd just like to chip in that in my (limited) experience mechanical cleaning is an absolute must as a complement to reach a clinical state. To this end, my fibreglass scratch brush is my most valued tool. I'm always amazed by how effective, still gentle, it is, for example removing rust, hard to remove dirt, and corrosion from wheel pinions, arbors, teeth, and pivots. After my US cleaning (chemically pure gasoline, isopropanyl, etc.) I'm often surprised to see how unclean certain parts are through my stereo microscope, especially the train wheels.

Edited by VWatchie
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+1 to that. Ultrasonic and chemical cleaning will remove a heck of a lot of "stuff", but there are times when a bit of manual intervention is necessary. I have a brass, steel and fiberglass scratch pen set (cheap 'n Chinese, from ebay,  as is everything these days it seems). The brass pen works well on stainless cases, as it is softer than the steel, so doesn't scratch the finish, but will remove even the most stubborn bits of ancient DNA and fossilized chicken soup.

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  • 2 weeks later...

i use an ultrasonic not the best but does the job. i know a lot of watchmakers who dont even use ultrasonic, they use pthwood, pegwood, watch paper brushes etc. but i use both methods if you dont have the greatest ultrasonic then you should not use it as your only source of cleaning....What i do is this. i have 2 jars one for first clean and one for second clean. these are small glass jars big enough just to fit a movement. I put lighter fluid in each jar and i also fill the ultrasonic with enough water to be slightly higher then the lighter fluid level in the jar. this will not let the glass break. i take apart movement and place them in jar #1 clean then repeat for jar #2. when they are out i dry them with a puffer or dust off can. lighter fluid evaporates very quickly so no need for hair dryer. i ream all pivot holes with pegwood then follow through with a round pivot broach (do not use this method for jewels since it could case them to crack) i rub all parts with watch paper and i brush all the wheels and spindles. I also push and twist all pivots in pithwood. i oil the movement then reassemble, then i add a bit more oil on top of the pivot/jewel holes with pivot seated. 

and as far as balance assembly i do not use the ultrasonic - i use one dip. then i polish the pivots using a burnisher, i also polish the pivots of the escape wheel too.

i use to use L&R but i dont like the fumes plus the cost. lighter fluid is basically naphtha and has been used for years to clean watches, plus its cheap and readily available at pretty much any store. it evaporates with no residue and does not require an alcohol rinse although its not bad if you do. i use it in small jars so there is no waste i get about 2-3 cleaning before i change the fluid. if you use it too much then you could get some residue on the movement.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi everyone,

Im wondering how long should i wash and rinse the movement in the mechanical cleaning machine L&R.

I saw one of Mark's videos and it seems that he does 15 minutes on each cycle, however, i read in a donald de carle's book that only a minute suffices.

What do you guys do?

Thanks a lot.

 

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17 minutes ago, Fred said:

Hi everyone,

Im wondering how long should i wash and rinse the movement in the mechanical cleaning machine L&R.

I saw one of Mark's videos and it seems that he does 15 minutes on each cycle, however, i read in a donald de carle's book that only a minute suffices.

What do you guys do?

Thanks a lot.

 

Hi mate, if you do it for a minute nothing will happen, I do mine for 15 mins and 2 rinses for 15 mins....

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Hi Fred, I  U/S clean for 12 minutes in Medium Naphtha. I do use a brush and very carefully peg out the jewel holes etc to be sure then a 12 minute U/S rinse in fast Naphtha. Dry oil and assemble.   Sometimes if the watch is very old and sticky I use acetone for the balance components and pallet. I have never used a specialist cleaning machine or their fluids. Works very well for me !

Edited by ecodec
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/20/2018 at 2:44 AM, dieale2 said:

I found this post to be useful. Especially the part about refining petroleum.

I really don't like using lighter fluid because the purity of it is a pot shot. I was using Publix Quick Light and it leaves a lot of residue. The problem here is that they aren't meant for cleaning things. They COULD be pure naphtha but they could also not be. It's depends on the brand and not everyone has access to the same thing. Also, I get dizzy when I stand over parts soaked in lighter fluid. I use acetone to rinse it off but it's still a PITA.

I try to find all my solvents at Walmart or Home Depot because I am cheap. But it's confusing as hell to figure out what these products actually are. They are named by convention and not chemistry, so names like "paint thinner" could mean different things to the manufacturer.

For example, Klean Strip sells "Paint Thinner" and "Odorless Mineral Spirits." According to them, odorless mineral spirits is a purer version of paint thinner. But since you can use odorless mineral spirits as a paint thinner, it's confusing as to what "Paint Thinner" is...

Also, there are different types of solvents. Acetone is different from petroleum distillates. Since it's basically nontoxic and dries extremely fast, it's probably a good rinse solution.

I am probably going to use a petroleum based solvent and then rinse with acetone. For me, I will probably stick with "Klean Strip" line of products since they are cheap, widely available, and looks like high quality. For petroleum based solvents, there is "VM&P Naphtha", "Odorless Mineral Spirits", "Paint Thinner", "Xylene" and "Toluene." I am already having a hard time remember these names...

The differences between them is the boiling point. They have different properties and cleaning "powers". Not sure which is the best for cleaning watch parts since they all can clean grease.

Thanks for that first link; very informative.  Now I'm wondering, though, why not just use acetone as the primary cleaner and as a secondary rinse? 

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1 hour ago, mlfloyd1 said:

I use acetone for cleaning and rinsing.

i don’t use it on the the pallet fork for fear of it dissolving the shellack holding the pallet stones in the fork.

Agreed. Acetone apparently will dissolve shellac. I think I might go with acetone for everything else, but use VM&P Naptha (US trade name for petroleum ether) on the pallet and possibly the balance. Now the question I have to answer is whether it makes sense to use an ultrasonic cleaner with these products.

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I use a small u/s cleaner that I bought from Walmart. It has two compartments. I bought the jewelry cleaner that’s sold with it and it does a good job. It really does a good job on metal bands.

I use small glass jars to put the parts in so I have everything together while cleaning and rinsing.

I wouldn’t recommend the small round mesh baskets. Parts like small screws and click springs can get hung up in them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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