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Hi, a friend has just left these with me to see if I can get them going; they were his Father's and they have sentimental value. He apparently tried to get them serviced a few years ago and was told they were too old. (No idea where he tried). The first one is a Borea, which I've started disassembling. The movement has a number BF158 - searching for that brought me back to this site! An entry in the 404 Club topic for a Shelton watch. This one has the same basic movement, but in a 17 jewel version - though still with a pin pallet ?? This looks to be generally OK, just gummed up with old lubricants. It's in a well worn and tarnished gold plated brass case. The other is really strange; a Cyma, what seems to be a "Cymaflex triple date" from what @ve found on google? There are two flush pushers in the side, presumably for date setting? This one had radium lume, and it's giving the highest count of any watch I've ever had; near enough one millirad per hour at the crystal. The speckles on the dial appear to be lume particles, as the hands don't have much left in place... I'm not really sure how to safely proceed with this one, to avoid contaminating anything? It does have a separate bezel with a knife groove. It tries to run with a gentle rotation, but only 10 - 15 seconds at a go.

The Borea is cleaned and ready for re-assembly, but after mentioning the radium lume on the Cyma to the owner, he's decided he wants to sell is as it is, so I'm not doing anything to that one. It would have been interesting, but also probably pushing my skill level.

I Have a doubt on a vintage watch I want to service. It's an old cronographe suisse I think from the 50's. Does it have in your opinion a radium dial?

Welcome to the forum. Be careful with that one. Seems to have some luminous compound on dial and hands. A watch of that era may contain radium.

always interesting every time we discussed radium. I was at a lecture on Saturday morning the subject was refinishing hands. Eventually I got to radioactive hands like tritium and of course radium. Amusingly they were commenting where the radiation usually doesn't go through the movement except it depends on how hot the radium is and how thick the movement is but the general feeling was that the radium wasn't a problem except of course the radon gas. Plus the recommendation was ideally a bunch of equipment you don't half copper facemasks etc. etc. Then a course is a problem of that also came up in the lecture of any time you restore the hand and/or dial even if you think it will make it somehow better you may find out that down the road if you were to sell the watch the diehard collectors will be very unhappy if it's not original including with its radio. I've heard stories of people buying Rolex watches will bring a Geiger counter with the verify that the dial has the proper amount of radium and it hasn't been played with. then looking at your pictures as far as radium damage goes it doesn't look bad at all. The yes if the radium is super strong I've seen pictures and we have a sample at work where it will burn the plastic crystal action transit blog from the radium and you can also burn the dial where the hands once for. So give a light color dial the radium hands stay above it in the move the hands you can oftentimes get a radium burnt affect. The same things happens with brand-new radium hands that are on a paper sheet if you move the hand you can see the paper underneath his discolored from the radium. The biggest problem I see with your watch is is that rust I see in the center? Looks like rust I don't see it in the movement but if that's rust that would be very very bad then as you are seeking information notice the three letters on the balance bridge? those are a US import code for tax and duty purposes that existed at one time. It's how the American companies can stay competitive by not allowing inexpensive imports in the country. Basically the taxes would raise the price up so the watches were all expensive. So if you look at the link the first entry is this AOC Heuer, Mido, Roamer (Meyer & Stüdeli) http://www.ranfft.de/uhr/info-uscode-e.html

You probably don't really want the radiation detector. Ill just cause undue stress especially if you start acquiring a vintage stuff. Somewhere but it's hiding in the attic I believe in a metal box I have an actual kit for reapplying your radium luminescence material. But then I also have some of the wax stuff that they used to sell. used to have is really little tiny tins that had wax with the luminescence material dissolved in seed heated up and put it underneath the hand in to fill in the hand and that's what the Steelers. I was never really impressed with it. But I discovered with my Geiger counter that some of the ones I have actually have radium in their which has really surprised about because but the radium was supposed to be phased out by? On the other hand I have a whole bunch of cards that have radium hands even without the Geiger counter you can tell because if you push the hand decide you can see the burnt paper from the radium. So do I get really excited to get some military hands are dials then you monitor gets very excited Here's what the powder we think it is it's available from cousins https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/diamantine-bergeon

The natural lume is seen on the dial and it has green color. It doesn't seem to have radium, also they stopped using radium in the 50's and this clock is made later. Do the dots on the dial still shine for some time in the dark right after ehposed to bright light? Good work with the hands! The factory existed untill mid 90's and then was closed. In the 80's they started to put plastic wheels under dial and plastic barrel for the alarm spring. When the factory was closed, the movement looked like this and only 2 jewejs left from 11 in the original

I believe Iv worked on at least 2 watches with radium on the dials. Both times I hadnt taken the proper precautions when working on radium watches, as I hadnt known any better. Am I in danger? This picture is a watch I worked on recently. And I cannot tell if its radium or really old tritium. The hand glow for less than a second under a black light.

A bit of an anecdote but might be helpful for some real life dealings with radium. A few months ago I acquired a moderate stash of mixed parts off Facebook Marketplace. Some of what was in the stash was around 50 small tins of old watch hands with each tin containing maybe 20-30 hands. All of which were rusty and absolutely coated in flaking radium! Needless to say I wanted rid of them, I double bagged everything and stored it in the garage and managed to find a relevant government email address and fired off an email. I got a response from someone who turned out to be the IAEA representative for our country and lived in my city so he offered to come around to check them out. He ended up taking them away and disposing of them for me but while he was visiting he also offered to scan my work desk and any other areas I used which I gladly accepted. He found no trace of radium on my desk where I do all my assembly. The only suggestion he had was to move the radioactive watches I own out to the garage and open them out there as my workbench is near the kitchen and he had concerns with potentially getting radium on food. The takeaway I had from his visit was that the precautions I take when working on radium watches must be at least semi-acceptable. I put down paper towels before opening any radium coated watch and put on a mask. Once I've opened and removed the dial and hands and placed them in a zip lock bag I carefully fold the paper and throw it away. I then wipe down my desk with more damp towels and wipe down any screwdrivers/tweezers I use and also wash my hands well before starting on the actual movement.

I use the N95 masks I bought in lockdown. I cover the desk in clingfilm to prevent contamination, and wear latex gloves (maybe not necessary). I remove the radium with cotton wool buds and warm water. Everything I use which comes in to possible contact with radium, I seal in plastic bags and put in the household waste. The small amount of cleaning water, I soak in to kitchen paper and bag. I think it's OK to tip in down the drain (here in the UK). There are plenty of opinions on just how dangerous radium is. The bottom line is you don't want it in your body. Taking the above steps is not difficult and should prevent a chance of ingestion of particles. Once under water, there's no chance of inhaling particles. With some 'historic' watches some people prefer to leave the radium intact for authenticity. Painting a clear lacquer (nail varnish) over the radium will prevent particles flaking off. I have a 1940s Universal Geneve with a radium dial where it's not easy to remove the radium, and it looks better left original. I keep it sealed in plastic bag to (hopefully) keep the radon gas in. Out of interest, do you have a reading in of the radiation count?

1947 Omega, cal. 283. I assume the 3, 6, 9, and 12 are radium, but what about the grey? Is it radium in your opinion. And understood a geiger would help here, but just curious how much we can learn with the eye alone here. Thanks. -- David

see what happens if I don't pay attention 100% at lectures I can't answer your question. so yesterday's lecture one of things he did talk about was and I didn't pay attention 100% was how the tell the difference between radium, tritium and basically everything else. One of the ways is with UV light things like the modern stuff will Floris incredibly well. The reason I didn't pay attention hundred percent was because I have a Geiger counter so I can tell with radioactive. Then basically the feeling at the lecture was it's not an issue we've had multiple discussions about it on the group there some people become extremely panicky and others it just don't give a darn as long as you don't go poking at it you'll be fine but even in the lecture he talked about actually restoring tritium hands for instance by taking some other hands taking the material mixing it up again and using it wearing nice facemasks goggles not reusing the tools etc. etc. but when it came to radium he wasn't really in favor of any of its. On the other hand they once made radium and refinishing kits because I actually have one lurking someplace it was in the material house ones that I thought it was quite amusing I believe I banished it someplace out of the way. if you don't have a Geiger counter one of the ways that you can tell is you put the watch in a dark box basically for 24 hours of not sure the exact time apparently the modern luminescent materials when charged up glow for quite a number of hours don't get very faint and the bill still glow city seal something up in a black box no light exposure 24 hours be safe then go into a black room allow your eyes to adjust depending on how long that takes and look at the hands of their still glowing or the dial apparently the radium itself will glow blue from my quick googling of how to tell if I have radio. His sockeye cause the zinc something to floor S because long ago that's been burnt to crisps by the radiation but apparently the radium actually does glow. Otherwise their cheap geiger counters on Amazon US have be careful a lot of them are not of the right type and are not sensitive enough maybe before you run out via Geiger counter look at this YouTube channel. He goes looking for radiation and antique stores or a prime place to find it and it isn't just the radium watches is looking for. One of my friends based on this went and bought a Geiger counter discovery sure enough some of the stuff in his house has ceramic with radiation. I think the only radiation I have each the radium hands which is a set of were banished someplace else in the house where don't have to worry about them. https://www.youtube.com/@RadioactiveDrew

Same problem here in the UK - who do you contact? I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I understand it's OK to dispose of a radium watch in the household waste. But not a whole lot at once. Though I've no idea where you would take them. When removing the radium, I seal everything in zip lock backs and put in the household rubbish bin. It hasn't set off any alarms yet! I guess the question is - is it OK to put a radium watch in the trash can. If so, it must be OK to put the radium (in a sealed container/bag) in also?

Do you think that the original lume had radium? I'm sure it did. They were not concerned about safety.

Hi Neven, Thank you for the history of this clock. There was a "2017" molded into the bakelite base of the clock. I thought it was the production date. The lume on the hands of this clock were replaced with black paint but I see from photos on eBay that the hands were originally lumed. I was thinking of restoring it back to the original look. Do you think that the original lume had radium?

That was my anecdotal evidence. Give me yours. Evidence of one watchmaker who died from radium induced bone cancer. This radium fear has been overly hyped. I like acronyms. To minimize Risk/Reward, we can either reduce risk, or increase reward. For horological radium (let's call it HR), there is some unknown risk that cannot be quantified nor agreed upon. But whatever it is, give it a value and fix it. Then ask yourself about the reward. Except in rare cases, probably not much. Back to ALARP...reminds me of the Alar scare. Life is full of risks and rewards. You place your bet and spins the wheel!

I think we need to put things into perspective, we can't treat the watch like its some kind of death machine when we are working on it and then as something benign after that and wear it day-to-day on our wrist, a good example of cognitive dissonance. I know that the body of the watch will block the alpha radiation which is the main concern, but the radiation detectors don't pick up alpha, so it is definitely throwing off other types of radiation too, otherwise our detectors would be useless. I typically get the hands off as soon as I can and dunk them in a benzine jar with acetone, for PPE I use finger cots. I then dispose of the cots and (contaminated) acetone, I give the watch body (including the dial) a few puffs of air outside on my balcony to remove any free radium dust. Hence, the only remaining radium will be on the numbering on the dial, but this is usually a lot less free to flake or become something you can pick up on your fingers or breath in as it is glued in place and it can only become free if you start messing with it. After the above I treat the watch like any other. The extremes some people go to reminds me of a conversation I had in the late 90's or early 2000's when a friend of mine said he would never use a cell phone as it gave you brain cancer, the irony was that he was smoking while he was telling me this. So, it's all about quantifying risk, get a radiation detector and take reasonable precautions to massively reduce the already minuscule risk without overdoing it. I don't think there are any data to support a conclusion that watchmakers are at a statistically significant increased risk of radiation related ailments than those that are not exposed to the risk of radium, but, of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, thus my reasonable precautions above.

The problem will only become apparent when around 3,200 people in your local council have availed themselves of the "Disposal of Luminised Article" law, and someone starts finding small pieces of rusty 1950s radium alarm clock dials and sundry other mildly radioactive crap in the local landfill or raised levels of "interesting isotopes" in the ground water during routine monitoring and hits the panic button. Either way, I suspect it might be simpler to say. Send your mildly radioactive crap to a registered disposal site and save us all the trouble of having to clean up the local river, might be a slightly less risky law than the "a big boy did it and ran away" approach we currently have. After all, what exactly qualifies as a luminised article? A watch hand? A time expired 2 gallon drum of radium lume found in grandad's shed? 3,200 Timex radium watch hands that turn up on ebay? The law as it stands does seem a little wish washy.

the back looks rough tbh, this is my record with a recall for radium dial and hands decommission, replaced with nato stores equivalent. Any www back i have seen is or was polished, i would bet money the back is not original. The dial could be old stock but something is niggling me. It was niggling me just looked at half a dozen examples and the 12 numerals are too close together. Its posible that after over 25,000 produced there could be some discrepancy on the dial. There should be lots of engraving on the backside of the caseback ? I think there should also be a letter code on the case itself, on one of the lugs.

Lovely watch. I have a 267 - similar movement with sweep seconds. (Wish it wasn't radium dial!) If you know you can source a new part* (where from?), then I guess have a go flattening the rivet. As you say, it's going to be tricky supporting it. *I know parts are hard to find for these movements. I managed to trash the hairspring on mine whilst adjusting the overcoil. I waited a long time before I found a replacement.

Hi, my name is Bruno I have a couple of wwii watches that I intend to start a cleaning and oiling process. But I have got concerned about possible dangerous materials they could have specifically radium on dial (dial painting or numerals?) or hands. My question is if this a real concern? Do you guys have experience about working on it? Or should I just give up on them for the best of my health. i have an A-11 bulova (at least seems original) and an Alprosa, both supposed to be from WWII age.

There are two issues with radium dials. First the possible ingestion of radium. Secondly, when the radium atom emits an alpha particle it becomes a radon gas atom. https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/wwii-military-watches-potentially-pose-serious-cancer-risk/ There are some internet experts who'll confidently assert that it's not a problem, but I'm going with the actual experts on this one and following something along the lines of Mike's regime.

Lovely looking movement. It would be good to see under the dial and get a movement diameter to help identify it. Any marks under the balance? I can feel it glowing from here That's a lot of radium. The first thing I do with a radium watch is (wearing a mask) seal the dial and hands in a plastic bag. It looks to be a nice enamel dial, so removing the radium in water should be easy.

It's really nice of you get a sensitive Geiger counter with audio. In other words if I turn the Geiger counter on that I have about every 20 to 30 seconds there is a little pop sound some random piece of something flying through space. But slowly bring it up near the packet of brand-new watch hands I have and it starts to pick up where though there is more and more of them in the wood bursts get closer and closer and then it sounds like a rapid machine gun fire. But it does bring up a problem my brand-new hands that look brand-new how old are they? The fact that the Geiger counter makes an interesting sound tells you that they must be reasonably old. If you're looking up brand-new hands on a card with the way they used to come if you move the hand a little bit C can see underneath on usually the radium ones you will see that the paper is a darker color. But otherwise it could be a card of hands made last year or whatever you can't tell. Or when you are buying old watchmakers stuff it used to be the feel the hands in they had a wax substance you'd melt it and you put that on the hands and I was thought that was all newer except once again the Geiger counter got really excited so maybe it's not that new. Then yes they did make some actual radium and refilling kits there was once one in the material house that I managed to acquire. It's very clearly labeled radium but it's not labeled touch it and you'll die they weren't afraid of radium back then. Then conceivably you're going to find that almost everything that fluoresces before a certain age is probably radium. Maybe I should work on military watches oh wait they have like 1 million times the radium of a normal civilian with each. Like a ships clock for instance I've heard stories of people going day Canada for watch show coming back to the US and getting pulled aside just for the possession of one ships clock with radium hands because the detectors at the border able to pick up something like that in your car. Then depending upon who you are determines how nicely they treat you. One was a older couple in a nice car slid invited him inside I think they gave moved coffee asked if they had any medical procedures asked if they could search the car and then they brought the offending clock in. The other person apparently they were out with their M-16s and more concerned about the way he looked. But it's interesting one radioactive ships clock you can't even come back to the country and no I don't know if they got confiscated or not The definitely if you want to be upset get yourself a Geiger counter and start looking at everything you have. Oh and here's a YouTube Channel you might find interesting. The last video covers what were talking about now which Geiger counter to buy and then go look at his early videos where he visits antique stores and other places where you'd think it would be safe but well it isn't https://www.youtube.com/@RadioactiveDrew Yes I suspect if radium was the killer of watchmakers it would be a much bigger thing than it is. Radium almost falls into a category of if you don't know it's bad then it's not going to hurt you..