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Showing content with the highest reputation on 01/21/25 in all areas

  1. Please don't move the balance with a screwdriver, certainly not "briskly" like that! If you want to see how the balance runs on its own, take out the fork, rotate balance 180 degrees, and release. It should easily oscillate for 30 seconds or more. You can rotate the balance carefully with a protected finger (finger cot on), or very gently with a small brush. Puffing gives some indication of its freedom, but it's unquantified. It definitely doesn't look free in the video. That could be due to damaged pivots, improperly cleaned/assembled/oiled balance jewels, some junk in the "chimney" of the Incabloc, and as Neven has implied (and my gut is there too) a hairspring out of true. Could be other things too. Until the balance performs freely, it's pointless to spend time looking at anything else.
    4 points
  2. probably the problem or having is that simple doesn't apply to a balance wheel. There are lots of things going on with extremely complicated math just as a guess. For instance on the website on dynamic poising there is a reference to why would you have to poise a screwless balance wheel? then he explained why they exist but? I also have a PDF attached from Omega why they have a screwless balance wheel. I bring this up because while he does explain the main points he doesn't include all of the points probably because he may not actually know them. For instance here's something interesting Omega has so as a general guess the problem with a balance wheel and hairspring is it is dreadfully complicated at a theoretical level. But still it's quite amazing how good of timekeeping they can keep if they haven't been screwed around with too much. Omega technical guide number 12 June 1959 Omega have adopt the screwless balance.pdf thinking about poise maybe this might help.
    3 points
  3. I suppose there is no simple explanation and „higher amplitude = longer way = slower is rubbish (to the 3rd order). Balance and Pendulum swing are different: the first is a harmonic oscillation, the second is not. The first should be isochrone (but is not in reality), the second is not, even theoretical. Frank
    3 points
  4. The balance is a system in conjunction with the hairspring. There are books and chapters of bigger books with lots of math figuring out how they interact, and some Nobel prizes for certain work. There are some similarities to pendulums but they are more different than they are similar.
    3 points
  5. I notice in your first video you were testing it without the balance cock being screwed in place. You can't really learn anything by that as things are likely to be different with the balance properly secured. Make sure the balance moves freely in a fully assembled movement (except for the pallet fork) before looking for anything else. Since you suspect an issue with the centre wheel, make sure you do a free oscillation test with the centre wheel in a variety of different positions. I'm not sure why you think the pallet fork is sluggish. In your test you were blowing it so hard it was bouncing off the banking pin back to its initial position. It's hard to tell how freely it's moving under those circumstances. You should be able to get the fork to swing by moving the movement: give it a twist on the bench, or hold it vertically and change its orientation. (I think that's what Neven meant by 'actuating' the movement.)
    3 points
  6. It looks a bit like there may have been a trace of oil on the brushes? That could cause smoke. Also, is the insulation between the commutator segments flush with the copper? It should be slightly undercut so the brushes are not lifted from the segments, as that causes arcing and wear. If it is flush, you can use a junior hacksaw blade to cut it in just a quarter millimetre or so. Deburr the comm with very fine abrasive sheet afterwards. This info is about DC motors, but the principle is the same - just a shallower cut for a universal motor such as yours. https://www.waiglobal.com/media/wysiwyg/1104-01-WAI-US-DC-Motor-Undercutting.pdf
    3 points
  7. I have some of those 20 degree angle gravers as well. I reshaped one to get 2 parallel(lish) sides with the (flat) point beeing slightly wider than the bit behind that (you want a parting tool to be a bit reverse tapered to avoid the sides to touch the cut and cause chatter), and made sure I had some relief angles all around. A dremel tool with a diamond disk makes the rough shaping very easy (and fast). I did the final shaping, sharpening and honing with the diamond plates I showed earlier. It doesn't have much stickout as the carbide is relatively brittle. Also when the tool is short you get less chatter. So instead of trying (struggeling) to achieve a deep thin cut (that might look nice) I tend to start with a wider cut that narrows as I get further in. Might not be pretty (or "best practise") but it works. If you haven't already, I can recommend watching T&T&T's video's on youtube (you might want to turn the audio down).
    3 points
  8. Thank you so much John, that really helps, now everything is clear! Not for me only, I am sure. Frank
    2 points
  9. I said I would post pictures of the tools I use for parting , I use the Xacto for parting brass & mild steel , the tool with the bulbus handle I use to part silver steel as it gives me something to push with , blue steel I use a dremmel with a fine grinding wheel run the lathe & the dremmel to put a groove then snap it off . Here is a video of me using a graver may be helpfull
    2 points
  10. Decades ago I saw a Glashutte WW2 chronograph I was interested in, in a pawn show - not running. The owner unscrewed the back and to my sheer horror he took a 30 cm kitchen knife and tried to nudge the balance wheel! Frank
    2 points
  11. I think long hours of loupe use causes neck and back strain. Years of being hunched over the bench using loupes will probably cause back injuries. It would probably be best to use a microscope and pay attention to your posture and take frequent breaks to relieve the strain in the eyes and back.
    2 points
  12. I'm braver than you, hiding behind the sofa, you big softy. I just put my fingers over my eyes. hehe.
    2 points
  13. Lol it does sound a little barbaric H , maybe not as much as we imagine, I trust Nev even though I want to question it sometimes, I guess needs must in this case . As with everything in watchmaking it is how you approach what you are doing that matters. On a similar note the OP's approach to setting the balance in motion has me cowering behind my sofa. @tb1982 please use a small artists paintbrush to do this, I dont think my heart is strong enough to survive watching that video clip again
    2 points
  14. Perhaps I am missing something, but what you're saying sounds absurd. If the end shake needs to be increased, the jewel should be adjusted, no?! Just looked into it: The Omega calibre 28.10 RA does not have a jewel on the pallet fork cock. Instead, this movement uses a simple bushing for the pivot of the pallet fork on the cock side. Perhaps the only way to increase the shake is to do as you suggest. I must say it sounds somewhat "brutal", but I guess it is what it is.
    2 points
  15. See, what You describe seems like rotor short connection. If You assemble the motor and measure the current while it is rotated at full power, it should be much smaller (no load) than what is written on the motor plate. If no current is written on the plate, then the power should be written, divide it by voltage (220 or 110, which part of the world?). If the rotor is shorted, the current will be much bigger. In such case, just search for another suitable motor, it should be no problem to source one.
    2 points
  16. Please allow me to be Dutch for a moment I do believe earlier on you already got some tips that, when followed up on, would have helped you to find this issue: And: Again, and I can't stress that enough: we do want to help. But it would also help (and keep us motivated to offer it) if we see that you actually do something with it.. If I sound a bit harsh: sorry, just living up to the reputation the Dutch have for being direct (blunt..).
    2 points
  17. It gets you in the ballpark, and in some cases excellent timing. A funny thing, I worked for some years doing work as an "external" for a big old brand who made a lot of really tiny watches. They still wanted pretty tight deltas on these tiny 60-80 year old pieces... so sometimes many hours were spent chasing down the last seconds. On this tiny stuff, often, dynamic poise was a real pain, as it would seem to effectively reverse. It could be hard to detect since already seemingly micro adjustments could throw things the opposite way, but on some pieces it was simply reversed. I've spoken about it with some serious timing experts, who've also seen it, but no explanation can be found. Bottom line was the hairspring collet is disproportionately large, throwing the center of the spring further out, pivots a disproportionately large (even at a whopping 0.06mm), etc. I did a staff for a colleague for a LeCoultre 104 he was working on. This is rectangular movement is about 1mm bigger than the 101, the "smallest watch". It timed suuuuper bad. He begged me to poise it, so I put it on the static tool, got it very close to spot on on that. Dang thing had a 30s delta in 6 positions which is unheard of on these... it was a good bit of luck, but he still thinks I'm some sort of wizard, haha.
    2 points
  18. You might all enjoy reading about the Le Coultre et Cie "Compass" camera... Yes you read that correctly, they made cameras, but not just any camera, this is a marvel of Swiss engineering and British Design. If you want to know the details... and why wouldn't you? follow this link -> http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Compass They turn up on ebay from time to time, but they are a little pricey.
    1 point
  19. The secret is out! The cheese residue on the knife adds some extra great lubrication.
    1 point
  20. As @nickelsilver said, it could be so. Actually, if the entire jewel setting sits tilted, but this doesn't seems to me to be the case. If the cap jewel is small it can fall directly on the hole stone and thus limit the axial free play. But again, doesn't seem to me to be the case. We need OP to confirm if there is axial free play, but it seems to be hard for him to understand what is correct free play.
    1 point
  21. So how do the top jewels compare? Top & Bottom Jewels should be the same 122.11
    1 point
  22. I use a plastic pointer stick between the teeth and the bridge. I rarely use my fingers to hold stuff, as they obstruct my view.
    1 point
  23. I wear glasses and I was in the horology field for around 30 years as a watch and clockmaker I used different strengths of eyeglasses and it never caused problems with my eyesight. I did before starting consulted my Optometrists he said you have nothing to worry about. I have more problems now with my eyes as I'm a diabetic. If you have any doubts do what I did.
    1 point
  24. we really need a picture of the movement. Then we don't do estimates here. If you send it the Rolex though it's going to be extremely expensive because Rolex charges a heck of a lot of money for anything that's vintage and normal vintage for them is not something as old as this. then here's a website with information about case back markings of vintage Rolex watches. then they do give us a clue about the vintage Rolex movements with the name of Rebberg movement. then when I look that up that is definitely a vintage watch that means anyone who services this is going to be expensive as there is very likely no parts available because the age. https://vintage-watches-collection.com/references/rolex-case-back-stamps-used-inside-vintage-rolex-watches/
    1 point
  25. If anything it might be someone who's doing it 8 to 10 hours a day, every day of the week, but wouldn't hold much to it.
    1 point
  26. I am reasonably sure that this is a fallacy. I have read many articles that state wearing the wrong glasses doesn't damage your eyes, it will give you headache though, the same should apply for using magnification.
    1 point
  27. I need a good picture of You hairspring from a side. What You do with this screw driver to the balance is pretty dangerous, but it for sure shows the free oscillations are poor and I don't believe that it has something to do with the cleaning.
    1 point
  28. As I transitioned from being a small-time watch collector to someone who spends a fair amount of time on watch repair, I stopped worrying about "original" and am just happy with "functional" most of the time on watches like these.
    1 point
  29. I have the watch back together now and it is much better - looks like the ring the bezel clicked over was just worn ( the watch is maybe 70 years old!)
    1 point
  30. The watch is a Roamer - says nothing more than Roamer 17 Jewels and Swiss on the dial. The movement is an MST 402 I think I have remedied the problem. I ran the back of my tweezers around the inside of the ring on the case the bezel clicks onto gently pushing outwards. It has made enough of a difference
    1 point
  31. The side play at the top is a little too much, but the problem is more likely the vertical. It looks like the barrel could be hitting the seconds wheel, mainplate or bridge - especially combined with the side play at the top. Is it a brass bush at the top?
    1 point
  32. HWGIKE#35 ETA 2390 Full service, hands and dots on the dial are re-lumed. Hole for the MS tightened. HS was in a bad shape, but i managed to bring it back to flat and concentric and I got lucky too I put the collet back in such a way that the beat error came exactly zero the first time with around 280 amplitude, straight line. Woah! Very happy! The case is very very worn including the inside of the lugs, someone must enjoyed this beauty for a long time. Dial also have a dot on it something went through the paint cannot help it.
    1 point
  33. Hi. I wouldn’t worry about the paint job it looks more professional than the original finish , great job well done. The only downside side is the fact you had to do it on a new product. You want to send photographs to the manufacturer ( probably in China) so no one would be interested. Well done.
    1 point
  34. Yes, looks like electrical smoke so needs opening to investigate further
    1 point
  35. Hello and welcome from Leeds,England. It looks like an electric fault, whether or not it's fixable, I'll leave to members with more experience.
    1 point
  36. Let's start again. Unless the movement was a new concept and not proved, then the same issue couldn't happen to all of them, but no, it's a tried and tested movement. So, the problem isn't with the movement, your doing something wrong, let's find out what it is. @JohnR725 wasn't criticising you, nor am I, we just want to discover the problem and help you.
    1 point
  37. Yes that's the interesting question isn't it? It gets even more interesting in that we have apparently three different movements that are all basically very similar but all have exactly the same problem which would be normally impossible. Notice that I made a reference to one of the questions I always ask which is what is the condition of the watch for servicing? But here we have apparently the repair of three watches simultaneously. So did all three watches come from the exact same location as may be possibly they had a pre-existing condition which is why they were acquired in other words they didn't work from some previous repair person? So basically a lot of these questions are asked to determine where the problem may have occurred pre-existing or? Then it's always nice if we see a picture of the complete movement. Many times not necessarily for this question but many times people will see a picture of a movement and recognize the problem even if they don't recognize the movement number. This is why a picture of the watch being worked on is always nice. Instead of pictures I will give links which bring up another problem? The other problem is the dates of the watches these are all from the 40s that makes them how old exactly? How many times a babe and worked on? Oh and since these are bumper automatics tech sheet is attached unfortunately if you read the fine print it only relates to the automatic it does not relate to the watch itself because classically Omega assumes that you actually know how to service a watch. Which is actually quite frustrating because Omega leaves out a lot of stuff on the service their watches. https://ranfft.org/caliber/8433-Omega-351 https://ranfft.org/caliber/8417-Omega-3010RA-PC https://ranfft.org/caliber/8401-Omega-2810RA-PC Now I would go on and speculate with ideas but will I get in trouble again? I'm going to assume the criticism that you perceive came from me? Repairing-Omega-self-winding-watches-bumper.pdf
    1 point
  38. Ideally, from the side your escapement should look like this. As others have said, the end-shake of the pallet fork and escape wheel have to be the same, otherwise the escape wheel tooth will hit a different part of the impulse face of the pallet jewel in dial up and down positions. The escape wheel tooth should be hitting half to 3/4 the way up the pallet impulse face, as the diagram shows. If you have a jewelling tool this would take no time at all to adjust both the escape wheel and pallet fork end-shake to be the same. You might have to move the pallet fork up or down on the arbor to suit. Remember the guard pin should be in direct line with the safety roller in both dial up and down and the fork doesn't scuff the underside of the roller in dial up position. This WOSTEP handout will help WOSTEP handout.pdf
    1 point
  39. Well, this is big amount of writing... Statical poising is for the balance wheel and the roller as a assembly. If balance well poised statically, the movement should have performance within 1min/day for the vertical positions, and if we need beter performance, dynamical poising should be done. Why statical poising does not give perfect results? Well, it is done without the hairspring. Adding the hairspring changes the things... The hairspring has a mass and it affects the poising, especially when not correctly centered. Centered means the imaginable center of the spring, which does't exist, to be in the middle of the hole of the collet. But, as we know, the hairspring is attached to the periphery of the collet, not in the middle. No mater, the spring can be centered as if the missing center of it would be in the center of the collet, but it is true only in static position. When the balance is rotated, the spring gets deformed (shrinked or enlarged), and together with this, the effective center of the spring moves, it shifts from the static position. Thus, the hairspring constantly brings error to the balance poising when balance rotates and thus affects the position errors. The dynamical poising helps to compensate this error from the hairspring by adding or removing material on the rim. The compensation is possible for certain amplitude, not for all amplitudes, but still it gives beter results than only static poising. The dynamical poising can be done by modifying the internal hairspring end too, by making changes to hairspring centering.
    1 point
  40. Number one thing to keep in mind with dynamic poising, is it should be done on a fully serviced piece that is running perfectly. It's counterproductive to attempt it on something that's not 100%. That said, it's extremely useful. If I restaff a watch, I rarely even check it on the static poising tool. A danger of the static poising tool is you might detect a poise error, correct it, only to find that you now have positional errors related to- the poise. Since dynamic poise takes into account the hairspring and how it affects the balance, you can get something that's COSC level with dynamic, but the balance seems out of poise on the poising tool. The best writeup I've seen is at the amazing site Vintagewatchstraps (such a funny name). Great info.
    1 point
  41. See this also: https://17jewels.info/movements/z/zaria/zaria-1509/ AndyHull found the caliber already…
    1 point
  42. Why demagnitize quartz movements . Think that is a bad advice? The risk of destroying something is high. The stepper motor has magnets inside like a electric motor. If the get demagnitized it's caput. besides there is a very little wheel on the stepper motor that easily breaks. High speed could kill it faster then a blink of an eye.
    1 point
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