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It's not until now that I started practicing the motor driven Jacot tool. So far, I'm very pleased with the progress and the workings of my "design" / setup. Here my first attempt with a balance pivot in a size 11/100 Lantern. It's all very tiny and I need the microscope to be able to see what I'm doing. And yes, I'm left handed Here the foot-switch, on the floor underneath the table. It would have been nice with a bigger switch-area and a heavier unit, but I had this "end-switch" on hand and it works

Thank you John. As you say. Time for a review. A time to step back and begin again me thinks. Yes. I do need to re-set. PLESE NOTE -- ---- FINAL COMMENT ON THIS POSTING PLEASE ------- Thank you all folks. I think there is enough on this post to keep me going for a while. Lets call it a day and give me a chance assimilate all the comments. There are good aren't they? Need to do a rethink into my systems and to put them into practice. Thank you to all. Regards Ross

unfortunately dyslexia does not affect just reading it affects writing also. Which is why I use dictation software because if I had to hand typed I would never be here. Then as a guess most the people on this group have dyslexia. there is a interesting study a while back a book was written and I believe they have an entire society now promoting their thoughts on the advantages of having dyslexia. simplistically they found when taking out the common factors of dyslexia reading and writing well they found people with dyslexia have advantages which is why a sizable percentage of the people on the group have dyslexia. for instance one of the stories in the beginning of the book a doctors explaining to a mother about her kid with dyslexia oh dear. she is grasping that her son is a spelling problem and the doctor keeps saying the words of like a doctor. It kinda goes back and forth much longer than I'm doing in this and at some point in time she grasps like a doctor? Why do you think doctors can't spell dyslexia. Or almost everybody or everybody at MIT has dyslexia for instance. The book goes on to all kinds of examples of breaks people up in the categories so dyslexia is not necessarily bad it's only bad for us communicating. Or me using my dictation software which frustrates the readers of the group and occasionally gets scolded for my ineptness of not seeing a problem because dictation software never makes a spelling mistake and I don't always catch the mistakes it makes. I'm expanding that not just too many cooks but too many thoughts and ideas were spiraling out of control actually we have spiraled out of control which brings up a serious problem for all of us. another reference of too many cooks in the kitchen brings up the problem of were all trying to help. Unfortunately the discussion has spiraled out of control as were all suggesting things lots of things and the common problem here is Ross. So now Ross has to try to interpret all of this flood of suggestions ideas whatever and that's a challenge a big challenge for all of us were not going to get answers back at all or they'll be delayed or nothing's going to be achieved here it's time to start over. Russ I believe you have a running watch you need to start a new conversation on perhaps review of how to service a watch. We could all use a review of servicing and we slow things down and go step-by-step of how to service your watch. Because that's really what you're asking how to service a watch successfully so it's running equal to or better then when you started. So for the reviews step-by-step to helping people can get answers on a more timely basis to analyze what's going on rather than simultaneously running a whole bunch of discussions all at the same time. But that's only my suggestion I'm sure others have other thoughts on this.

Happy to report that the clock is up and running and has been keeping accurate time. Thank you all for great suggestions!

Yeah as far as I know, "railroad grade" standards didn't mandate surviving impact of a locomotive.

there is nothing that would prevent Ross or anyone else from coming back to this conversation and answering the question of what was causing the low amplitude. The problem right now is we're going into many directions and it doesn't help anybody doing what were doing.

I've been waiting almost a month for this to arrive. I love new tool day! This will be a big help for me moving forward.

Sorry, I was missing for a while. OK, so we have bad free oscillations test... Ross, we need now to understand if the problem is in the bearings or in the hairspring. And, has it something to do with the cleaning process. Now, the balance actually does not need to be clean for reaching good oscillations count. Only the pivots need to be clean, this is the part of the balance that goes in the stones, and stones need to be clean too. I will recommend to do different cleaning to see what will happen. The pivots can be cleaned mechanically. Use soft wooden stick to drive the pivot in the face of it and rotate the stick for a while, this is enough to clean the pivot. Exercise on balance that is not important first, to be sure that will not break some pivot. The stone settings - deep them in some domestic degreaser for 2-3 hours, then wash them in water, and finally in isopropanol. Do the test again, first dry, then oil the stones.

Seen on eBay. This looks like it fell into a kitchen sink waste disposal or perhaps met a power lawnmower. And yet that hairspring looks fine!

Unpin the spring to seperate the stud form spring, mount the coil on a needle as shown, run a needle through circle from inner all the way to the outer end.

Hi another way is to use the stick stone setters as used by jewelers for picking up jewels etc. sold by Cousins uk quite cheap

It took me another hour to finally get it in. I used a trick I saw in a YT video where you stick the pointy end of the hand in rodico the grip the rodico in one hand an line up over the post. It was still not easy but the hand was more stable that way then trying to align it with tweezers where the slightest touch or release of the tweezers makes it jump, twist and fall. Once I got it where I thought it was over the post I nudged it onto the post with the tweezers closed and over the tube part of the hand. When I was sure I was on the post I used a hand pusher to set it. It did get me thinking about the pros and cons of the microscope. I did this under the scope and even though the microscope is at an angle (IE, not perpendicular to the work surface) it's still mostly a vertical point of view and hard to gauge if I'm over the top. It might have been as easy to use a high bench and loupe.

This is a 2836 that I have just pulled from my projects box and as with the example above from @GuyMontag there is a moment during the date change when the teeth line up perfectly with apertures in the retaining plate, however, the point at which the jumper spring starts to flick the wheel into place is just before the point of alignment (for want of a better description) and so the wheel powers through the alignment without dislodging. I had to hold the date wheel in this position to take the photograph. What is interesting here is that we seem to have a variety of different shapes of retaining plate, and the one shown by @Jon doesn't have the cut outs that align with the teeth at all, so with his example it is impossible for the wheel to jump out. It may be that something is lifting the date wheel on @JeremyLaurenson's watch such that the teeth are being pushed up against the underside of the retaining plate just enough that as the teeth align with the cut outs they are pushed through. I'm guessing that the date wheel is for a 6 o'clock date window rather than a 3 o'clock window, hence the orientation of the numbers and the misalignment at the stem (the alignment of the 13 is correct for a 6 o'clock window). Is this the original date wheel for this movement? Are the date wheel teeth all in good condition and are any of them bent either up or down compared to the others. Is the retaining plate original to this movement and this date wheel? Is it possible that the date jumper spring has a slight twist in it such that it imparts just enough upwards force to the date wheel as it turns that it causes the problem? If it is twisted away from normal such that the bottom edge of the jumper is closer to the date wheel than the top edge it will impart an upwards movement as the wheel turns.

Hi well done, a simple adjust ment like that can go wrong quickly a good job well done.

The day disk doesn't need to be present to keep the date wheel in place. I think it's common practice to lubricate the teeth of the date wheel by applying your oil to the skipping double spring and then advancing the date to transfer the oil to the date wheel teeth, repeating as you go.

OK Folks I'm kind of on cloud 9 I haven't received the setting lever spring yet but I realized today I could assemble most of the movement without the motion or keyless works and then I would know if I could get this thing running (put a bit of wind in the mainspring with a screwdriver). So I did that today and two things happened. IT RUNS! Which is great, but I think I figured out what is actually wrong with it. The screw that holds the upper jewel for the escape wheel is stripped. As I was re-installing the train wheel bridge I saw it move a little, I thought that was odd and figured I would just tighten the screw, but it just spins inside the threaded hole in the train wheel bridge. Back off to the internet to try and source a replacement. In the meantime I'm also off to figure out how to service these balance wheel jewels. I haven't seen this type of setting yet. Here is a quick vid of it running! https://photos.app.goo.gl/TXAFBU7E1ef2ektF7

I got into watchmaking as a hobby about six months ago. I have been fascinated with mechanical watches and watches in general since I was a child. I work as a network administrator from home for an international company. I also brew my own craft beers, ciders, and seltzer! I look forward learning all I can here Bruce!

Hi the picture is confusing by the angle can you post one from above the spring , looking down, and one from the side ideally to verify concentricity and the flatness.

I pulled up a video from when I serviced a 2836-2 and I don't see anything different in your video vs. mine. I slowed my video way down in VLC and paused and took a screenshot while the date wheel is advancing and in the image it looks like there is an instant where the Date Jumper Retaining Plate is NOT covering any of the Date Wheel teeth, or at least not that I can see. One thing that does looks slightly off is that right before you start to change the date, the Skipping Double (spring) is sitting between the teeth, where it's supposed to be, but the date shown right next to the Stem is not centered over the stem. Are you sure this is the correct Date Wheel? Did the quickset function work prior to servicing?

I've broken two pivots when I got out of sync - I wasn't holding the pivot down hard enough in the slot and the balance jumped out. I'm not sure how I'd manage with a motor driven tool

Here's a set of pics taken in order. A tooth or two have to be under the jumper spring plate at all times to stop the date wheel from being able to come up. If that is not the case, then I can only assume it is not the correct wheel or jumper spring plate. If the plate is covering at least one tooth during the date change, then this problem couldn't happen

Thanks for explaining it. I'm so out of touch with some modern things.

Thank you John and others for participating. If we could end this discussion now before if falls into dissention. I am working on a number of the comments made by members. It will take some time. And, I will of course give a result. Thank you. Sorry I've let most of you down by not understanding fully.

Thats a PIP , Poising In Place.

you always have to wonder if somebody was wearing the watch when the incident occurred? I once did a Hamilton 992 and around the edge on the dial side notches had been taken out almost like someone took a pair of pliers and just broke off pieces. No idea at all why that occurred and the balance bridge it got knocked out of alignment to fix the problem of the balance now rubbing on the pallet fork bridge the ground that down nice and thin. So always wondered if somebody was walking in front of a train for instance.

Hey Tom thanks for the help! Yes it’s worth a shot, I will send a message and see where this lead takes me, cheers man!

Agreed. I'm out.

Hi as Old Hippy said carefully as long as the lever falls without catching/scraping should be ok Just take your time and don’t rush all will be well

Then this is definitely one of the issues you are having ross, most of that energy the mainspring is producing coming through the train is being killed by a balance that doesn't want to oscillate. As nickelsilver said, focus on the balance assembly, maybe do the test first and deal with getting the balance running right before continuing any other part of the build. Make that your priority for now, so as soon as you are at that stage get some pictures posted and describe exactly whats happening. We can all get our heads together and get this area fixed before looking at anything else.

10 to 15 seconds , is this definitely without the pallet fork in so the balance can oscillate freely on it's own ? A good puff from the blower should result in quite a bit over 1 minute. I stick to Nev's more consistent method now of releasing the balance from a 180 ° angle from rest , he suggests the hairspring should pull 100-200 oscillations from there.

Why didn't you tell us about this at the beginning? You've been advised at least twice to conduct this test over the last few days, without giving us feedback. Sorry to get on your back, but if you don't listen, the less patient among us (speaking for myself here) will give up offering advice. Here endeth the sermon. Now you have located one problem (there may be others) in the balance assembly focus your attention there. What is causing the increased friction? Go through a systematic checklist of the possible causes (freedom of moving parts, i.e. shake, condition of bearing surfaces, hairspring movement...). To take the bearing surfaces as an example. After cleaning and before assembly and lubrication, you need to inspect the jewels with a high-powered loupe (min. x10 but really x15 or x20) or a microscope and good lighting to make sure they are perfectly clean. The hole jewels are best inspected with back-lighting. No stains, spots or flakes. No cracks or chips. The cap jewel surfaces should reflect uniformly white like a mirror when you catch the light right. The pivots need to be bright and shiny, scratch-free and cylindrical. No remnants of cleaning fluids. If you do these checks and everything is perfect, you can immediately stop speculating about your cleaning methods. If on the other hand you find dirt, stains or sticky residues, it's still a success, because you've narrowed it down again. If you are not sure about anything you find, take pictures and show us.

Some seconds hands can be tricky, the tube on the hand can be misshapen or sometimes have a little paint in them from the paint used to colour the hand, this reduction in internal diameter can make them a very tight fit. You did the right thing in walking away, trying to force it may damage the hand or worst case the pivot onto which the hand fits, then you have a much larger issue. If you suspect what I am saying is correct you have 2 options: Use a different seconds hand Use a broach (like the ones below) to open it up slightly (in baby steps!) Let us know how you get on - pictures are a big help too (hint)

I don't even always use a new mainspring and i get at a minimum 275 amp and amazing accuracy if i take the time to do a little work on the hairpsring. Heck i serviced a 7006 that was the most trashed movement i've ever worked on, horribly abused. It gets 285 amp. My last two services of 7s26's i got about 275 amplitude, on one i got a delta of 6, on the other a delta of 8. On the first one average rate deviation ofver a week was 1 seconds per day and on the next one about 1.5 seconds per day. I too constantly hear about what crap movements seiko makes, meanwhile i get consistently amazing results when i work on them. And you don't need to tell me to ignore the seiko service sheets lol. They're a total trainwreck. I use modern oiling theory and principles.

Just the one set I purchased from Goodwill. The center set punch it came with appeared to have been sharpened (poorly) but does the job. I picked up a used punch off eBay with a chipped point. I now have two punches to be refinished! This damn hobby makes a tool junkie out of the best of us!

Tissot calibre 781 Disassembly (Please sort the images by name in ascending order) Tissot calibre 781 Assembly (Please sort the images by name in ascending order) Tissot calibre 781 ranfft facts Some time ago my brother handed me this Tissot dress watch from the mid-1960s housing a Tissot calibre 781. My brother collects watches but doesn’t tinker with them (yet). Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to give this Tissot 781 an overhaul (you always learn something). It did seem to run and being a 17-jewel manual wind watch I thought a service shouldn’t take too long or pose any challenges in particular. Anyway, when I removed the case back, I noticed to my surprise that the balance had stopped. I thought “that’s funny”, as it was fully wound and had been ticking along fine while I was looking at the dial. Going deeper I realized that the one of the balance staff pivots was broken off. So, I called my brother and told him the bad news and that I had no experience replacing balance staffs. Well, my brother didn’t become too upset about this but simply told me to keep the watch and possibly repair it in the future if and when I would learn how to replace a balance staff. I wasn’t sure I was ready for it, but life is unpredictable so I thought that it was now or never that I would learn how to replace a balance staff and get the necessary tools to do it. Long story short, I did learn how to replace a balance staff and the watch is now ticking along just fine. In the process I got first class help and illustrations from my fellow Swede @HSL, and if you are in the process of learning how to replace a balance staff, I do recommend reading the following thread where you’ll find HSL’s (and other helpful) posts about this “Staff replacement, balance wheel wobble”. To call this post of mine a “Service Walkthrough” is perhaps a bit of a stretch as the pictures don’t include any oiling suggestions and/or tips/instructions. Nevertheless, I’m thinking that the pictures still might be useful to anyone servicing this calibre and perhaps pondering in what direction the main spring should go and/or what screws to use where, and so on.

The yoyo keyring is essentially how I learned with elastic "string". Moved on to bow mostly out of convenience, set up roll, go. In later life the bow has held.

Looks fantastic and I especially enjoy the wall clock! Warning OT, but I hope I may be excused! Well, I don't have a belt-driven Jacot tool, so for now, I will just have to settle with my extendable Yoyo keyring, but it works well enough for me so I'm certainly not complaining. Had my wife record a Youtube short video while I was working on restoring a centre wheel. I really appreciate the Jacot. Without it, many fine vintage watches would not get a second life.

To conclude my last project; on the picture it all comes nicely together; the monitor-arm for the microscope and the belt-driven Jacot tool. The microscope is equipped with the original 1:1 lens (7x-45x magnification) which gives, positioned above the jacot tool, the perfect working height. Initial test, everything works a treat

I read somewhere or heard someone say: "My greatest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them."

I've been looking at pivot file burnishers to use with the jacot tool i've just cleaned up, there are a couple of online write ups about making an homemade pivot burnisher, one using a drill bit the other a tungsten carbide. Links below. https://joyofprecision.com/post/11833625959/making-a-burnishing-file https://www.snclocks.com/TechnicalInformation/Tid-Bits/Tid-Bit-11-Making-a-Burnisher/ https://abouttime-clockmaking.com/downloads/Burnishing.pdf I will have a go at making a couple of burnishers at the weekend, one finished with 600 grit the other 400 grit, see if they work or not.

If the wife knew how much money I spent on tools she would probably have a heart attack (and me too if I started to count on it). Fortunately, watch tools are so small and seemingly inconspicuous that she suspects nothing and I can keep being in denial

Good point and that could possibly be a deciding factor! I have the Bergeon tungsten carbide burnisher and I immediately felt more "comfortable" using it than the Vallorbe that I first got (and no longer use).