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I quite like working on women's watches too, you can get a very high quality movement for very little money (Omega <$100), which is a small fraction of the men's equivalent cost. It's nice to work on such quality movements rather than fight with more rudimentary (?) men's movements. My wife was lamenting on the hassle of having to wind up a watch (1st world problems?!?!), then her Fitbit thing died. Gave me immense pleasure to point out that it took hours to charge her smart watch up, but only 30 seconds to fully 'charge' my mechanical watch.

As a matter on note. Just installed a balance to an citizen 8200. All wheels spin. Cleans sound of escape turning. Pallet not oiled. Jewel of escape oiled, top and bottom. Good 70% visual. I could see before I started timing that it would be low amplitude. However I have now spent 2 hours timing. Result 0s. 187 Ampli ... flaming.... tude. 0.2ms BE. I'm good with every other part. Amplitude hates me. BIG NOTE Thank you for all the help every one. Learning so much from your replies. Special thanks you you John. I will get there. Need a break. See you all tomorrow.

Hi Waggy. Dangerous ground trying to score brownie points on the wife, if she had been a Yorkshire woman you would have been looking for a dentist.

Ok I had a go. Feels very comfortable, precise and safe. Having those fingers resting on the tool makes a difference.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever put a watch that is known to have a good amplitude on your timegrapher and confirmed that the amplitude reads as good?

I think whatever you do change Ross just change one thing at a time, this way something very obvious might become apparent. Lots of changes will still have you guessing what the problem was once its fixed. How about keeping the balance and fork away from the ultrasonic for a while and clean them by hand. And definitely do Nev's free oscillation test , i really like doing that. The balance is such a low torque assembly relying on just that little flick from the fork to keep it running. It doesn't take very much to stop it in its tracks.

There are many cooks in this kitchen

Indeed. This one let me have free reign horologically speaking. It’s not 404 but the strap cost more…

Within this lot a few of them fall into that same category at that time. Haha i landed myself a double whammy of a women. Wouldn't have her any other way, if we encounter trouble i can just step back and let her deal with it.

Hi @Neverenoughwatches fiery eh. And the bumps to prove it. Well done Waggy. A strategic retreat.

She's Canadian so just apologized and ate her poutine

story that I'm not quite grasping all of this so it appears to be that you using three separate jars of the lighter fluid of two minutes each followed by three jars of the alcohol for two minutes each and this isn't right at all then despite the cautions and I don't use lighter fluid I know others do on the group. But as I said before I run everything through the ultrasonic and I don't have issues with the jewels falling out. So let's pretend lighter fluid is a watch cleaning product which it's not really. But it's your cleaning product I would run it for at least four minutes. then you would rule over the first jar into the second jar then into the third jar all of lighter fluid. The purpose of this is that the first jar of lighter fluid your poor cleaner would clean off aggressively and become very dirty and as you go from jar jar your reducing the bad stuff on the plates. Then the isopropyl rinse is just a rinse off the lighter fluid and I probably wouldn't you run that in the ultrasonic I would just swirl it around for a little bit the rinse off the lighter fluid and go right to the dryer. If you're using a commercial product you would do a cleaning cycle first. then typically two separate rinses and the only reason why we normally use alcohol is issues with the rinse drying. They change the properties so basically it doesn't draw I-had it in my hairdryer blowing across it and the plates for nice and hot too hot to even hold and the rinse was still there because it's environmentally safe now. That's why use the isopropyl as just a final rinse so I wouldn't even run an ultrasonic I'd concentrate on just the lighter fluid and then if you can figure out how to buy some commercial fluids They would be so much better for you to be using. But it is what you have I see have been influenced by old-school watchmaking. When I was in school I was told if you could see the oil you had too much that's old school. What they discovered is old-school isn't enough lubrication. your oil choices are interesting you have a super light oil and the super heavy oil. Then I assume you're oiling the escapement with the 9010? I would like to know exactly how you do that and yes it's extremely critical at this be done right it's amazing how much amplitude can be lost by not lubricating the escapement correctly. now how much oil should you use in your jewels? Old school would be the top picture which is now considered unacceptable now let's find another picture of the confusion of lubrication as the minimum here almost could pass as the unacceptable in the picture up above then what is considered unacceptable basically putting the oil any place except where it's supposed to be and you still have to be able to see the top of the pivots

Or even a WRT discount code!

There looks to be a lot of space between the washer and pin. Try a thicker washer.

Ross, you and I are doing pretty much the same things with two exceptions. First, I am using L&R cleaning and rinse solutions in my ultrasonic, instead of naphtha, and second, I demagnetize the movement once it's reassembled. I wonder if you are exposing the parts to magnetism somewhere in your work area. Or, as others have suggested, the timing method itself is the problem. Perhaps you could post a video of a recently serviced escapement. It should be pretty obvious if you say you are only achieving half the normal amplitude.

as far as I know they were always there sort of. In other words there they are to tilt the fork to be in alignment with the coil. The problem is they're not always the same as the image below shows there in different colors. Although I don't think I've ever seen a black washer usually the gold is the most common or the copper color occasionally. I am assuming there was a manufacturing tolerance with probably the tuning fork to get a line with the coil assembly. So basically anytime you have the washers when I take the fork out I put the screws back in the keep the washers where there supposed to be that way I don't have to worry about mixing them up of two different colors.

Just arrived, a Longines 30L. I've been looking for one of these for a long time. I've been a fan of Longines since I got my first, I love the quality and elegance. In the thread "looking for a simple, ultra-precise hand-wound movement - suggestions?", @nickelsilver suggested the larger Longines (30mm movements). The higher grade version of this movement (30Z) were used as observatory chronometers. So I decided I needed one. I'm expecting good performance. It's not going to just sit in one of my cases, I'm going to regularly use it. I bought it as "spares or repair", so was expecting a damaged balance. But on first look, the balance and hairspring seem perfect. It just seems to have a broken mainspring. Result BTW @nickelsilver, you also recommended Peseux as good movements. I bought a cheap Rotary with a Peseux 7050. Looked like it had been serviced by a gorrilla - the pallet fork was bent about 30°, missing pallet jewel, hairspring all out of shape. So I wasn't expecting great performance. On the timegrapher yesterday, looking good ! (I'll be buying more Peseux - good quality at a good price )

I was feeling like I was getting pretty good with my Seagull 3600 so I bought my first project on Ebay. Its a non-running mid 60's Elgin Sportsman! I was looking for a time only watch that was manually wound. (not mentally ready to take on an automatic yet) The disassembly went smoothly. Everything appears to be here so I am hoping a good cleaning and reassembly will get this baby running again. If I can get it mechanically sound I may take a stab and replacing the crystal (I don't have a press yet) and maybe even restoring the case (its in worse shape than I though it was going to be in) Next big decision I have is do I try to manually re-wind the main spring or buy a new one... Learning a lot as I go.

Here is my bench. I move the keyboard back onto the monitor base. Take the box off the printer and place it in front of the keyboard. Lower my seat. Only then do I put the required tools in the box for use. Timegrapher is Weishi 1000. You can just see it behind the monitor. When I am working with the seat lowered, it is clearly visible. This area is all I have for use. My total space. Every item is put away in its relative place when I finish. Nothing is left our as you can see.

Hi. I will have a look at my clocks as it’s late and check on the spring, most clocks have different ways of doing the same thing so it needs a clear look at,

A beautiful timepiece as always. I envy your ability to find these "gems". I'm not into pocket watches, but nevertheless. Oh BTW, really clever to ask the seller if it runs in all positions. If it doesn't run in a certain position it likely has a broken staff, and broken staff on these old watches is of course very common. Congrats! That's one gorgeous timepiece! There is so much to like about it. Among other things, just to mention something, the crown looks spectacular. Congrats! As a result of the same thread, I got myself a Peseux 7040 which I have just serviced. Tentatively it looks very good on my TM. Very straight and stable lines, although not with the same nice amplitude as you got, but still good.

One of the problems in watch repair is we don't have a problem , then if your watch has an issue you have no problem, so first thing to do is ask yourself if your watch has an iissue and you need to find out if there is an issue, then not having a timegrapher machine is your problem, so whats the problem.

good this saves me from running higher up in the messages to quote something. so casually when were looking at what he's doing it sounds right until you look at the fine print and realize it's not. cleaning actually involves removing the concentration a bad stuff off the plates. This involves multiple a minimum of three jars and moving the watches are parts whatever from jar jar jar. four minutes per jar would be acceptable. Then the final alcohol rinse doesn't need ultrasonic and it doesn't need a lot of time so maybe don't really know but maybe less than the minutes you just rinsing off the lighter fluid as a final final rinse and then you can dry the whole thing.

Very interesting. I would posit that increasing the magnetism is roughly equivalent to increasing the transistor gain, so in that sense, your results are the same as mine. Indeed mine is a 218 (sorry I forgot to mention earlier). Similarly, the resistor can have the effect of a low gain transistor (not in the same way). Transistor beta is a function of collector current, so a resistor going higher lowers the quiescent collector current and thus reduces gain. But, I would think the resistor would have to be way out of spec...dunno. I am impressed with your soldering skills. I have the same iron as you, but perhaps a different tip. I did a little research on small transistor packages and so far all I have found is SOT23 type. I managed to solder one in (another case) but it was crowded. Another thing I did was to fool around with some tiny compasses and several forks to see if I could measure a difference in their magnetism. Sketchy results.

Of the three 218s I've serviced, the one that behaved like you describe was weak magnets on the fork. If you replaced the fork, probably not your issue. Two of the other non-runners were a 218 and 219, and both sets of resistors and caps were out of spec. Soldering in new ones fixed the problem in both cases. Not as scientific, but my anecdotal results so far. I'm a computer programmer, not an EE

Awesome thanks for the tip on the spring. I inspected everything during the disassembly and my only thought at this point is that its really really dirty. I should have been more thoughtful and tested functionality of each wheel during disassembly. I was super excited though! lol

Thank you for your persistence. I'm sure you'll solve it in the end. Just out of curiosity, when you measure the coils, are you measuring DC resistance or AC inductance? Is this the 218 or 214 circuit?

It looks to me that’s a bench mount snap on caseback remover, not at all like a robur press apart from general shape. Tom

Can i just clarify that Ross is doing one wash cycle of 6 minutes and one rinse cycle of six minutes, but yes another one or two rinse cycles are in order. You will find it Ross then a forehead slap will follow . Sometimes we know for sure but maybe the word convinced fits better that we have something right. Make sure your cleaning game is on point Ross, cleaning bracelets and cases are not a surefire way to determine how well your machine is working. Firstly they tend to be very grubby and any improvement can make them seem perceptionally sparkling . And secondly cases and bracelets are placed directly in the ultrasonic tank. Watch parts are not, the ultrasonic waves have to penetrate the glass jars and the mesh baskets, so thats 2 extra barriers and thick glass jars are not the best for transmission of the waves. I swapped out my glass jars for lol would you believe thin baked bean tins , the difference here is a 4mm glass jar and a 0.5 mm steel tin. Steel anyways is a better material to transmit waves and the tin is 8x thinner. You can buy plastic lids for the tops, actually pringle lids fit them . These tins have been unaffected by the solutions, one has had elma ammoniated in for six months and it looks perfect inside, the lids dont particularly like the elma fumes so i have a weight on top of that one. Lol someone's on form today .

The two washers that sit under the tuning fork are amusing. Anybody know the history of those things? Did they build it and then realize, "Oh damn, we need to shim this thing."

I don't even always use a new mainspring and i get at a minimum 275 amp and amazing accuracy if i take the time to do a little work on the hairpsring. Heck i serviced a 7006 that was the most trashed movement i've ever worked on, horribly abused. It gets 285 amp. My last two services of 7s26's i got about 275 amplitude, on one i got a delta of 6, on the other a delta of 8. On the first one average rate deviation ofver a week was 1 seconds per day and on the next one about 1.5 seconds per day. I too constantly hear about what crap movements seiko makes, meanwhile i get consistently amazing results when i work on them. And you don't need to tell me to ignore the seiko service sheets lol. They're a total trainwreck. I use modern oiling theory and principles.

I use a mainspring for the Seiko 7009 for the 7S26C and get 300 degrees amplitude. The size is 0.95 x 0.115 x 380 x 10. Those that say Seiko's only get a low amplitude is nonsense. I've never serviced a Seiko without seeing an amplitude of at least 270 degrees. The trick is using a new mainspring, which seems pretty obvious to me, but hey! I've recently serviced a Seiko 7019A, which is over 30 years old with an amplitude of 290 to 300. a 7S26C should definitely get a great amplitude! Every student that services the 7S26C, B and even A variant gets well over 270 degrees amplitude. The problem is most Seiko's never get serviced regularly because it isn't cost effective, so they get run into the ground and parts wear, especially the barrel bridge arbor hole, but if the parts are good, then a good amplitude will be had the majority of the time. Seiko's with low amplitude seems to be an old wives tale that someone else then repeats and if it is said long enough it seems to become a fact, just like an 'over-wound' watch. Don't ever oil the pallet arbor jewels, even though it is recommended in the Seiko service manual. That is a sure way of losing a lot of amplitude. If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say Seiko's have low amplitude......

With some luck, this Tula-silver PW should arrive next week. Seller says it runs in all positions. Havila movement "B". Curious & an exciting project ....... Sellers pictures; Havila movement "B"; https://watch-movements.eu/blog/en/2020/03/05/havila-a-nearly-unknown-movement-manufacturer/

Nice, Aegler specialised originally in ladies pocket watches, from what I've read this is how wilsdorf convinced them into making those wrist wearable. I wont ask you to open it but can you remember or did you find out what movement this has ? What do you mean by it let you have free reign ?

If i remember correctly WW , you are speaking from experience. Feisty yorkshire women are not to be trifled with, i have the added bonus of a redhead

@rossjackson01 Not just the balance, clean the fork by hand also. Aluminium test provides enough evidance to conclude that ultrasonic removes shellac, it can even damage pivots, so whenever you put balance or fork pallets in ultrasonic you loose shellac thus jewels can move/misalign. Put a damaged fork in ultrasonic and compare before and after pictures, loss of shellac will be the conclusion. Rgds

https://www.ofrei.com/page2116.html I can't find the yoke but I lllooked up one of the other caliber. Try this https://www.emmywatch.com/db/movement/longines--350/

Ross, there are things that You for sure don't do right, and here I will try to poin to them. The first one is that You just think that arter cleaning and reassembling, with the putting finally the balance back in the movement, this is the end of the whole process and the amplitude should be great, and there is nothing more to do but hope this will be so every tume. Well, as You see, there are cases when the amplitude is not good. Why is this? 'Im I not cleaning good enough?'. Such thoughts are showing that something is missing in You understanding of the whole thing... The normal logic is: I am having lo amplitude, then I should search why. The first thing to know is that the main reason for lo amplitude is losses in the balance assembly. So, I must check for losses. This means to do the free oscillations test. The result will confirm the losses or not. If losses confirmed, then I must understand where the they are - in the bearings, in the hairspring or so on. If the test is good, then I should move to the escapement function, especilaay if there is good drop lock and normal draw to the banking pins and so on - I will check everything to the main spring to sort out what is wrong. In other words, the watch repair is not only cleaning and lubrication, but it needs full understanding of what happens in a watch movement and knollage how to check everything. Then, the timing machine... I will not stop claiming that one must not trust the amplitude reading from the timing machine. The amplitude is seen with naked eye. Especially in the older watches with balance with two spokes, the first thing to see when look at the balance oscillating is the amplitude. It doesn't need even time to calcilate, You just see it. It is a little bit harder when the balance is with 3 spokes and much more harder when 4 spokes, but still if You need to know the amplitude, You can go without timgrapher. At least, You can check if the timegrapher readings are close to the truth and thus know to trust it or not in every different case.

Yup. Good innit? Even though I have problems, the members take the time to assist. They are good.

Totally agree Ross. I am a noob that has become addicted to reading this forum and fascinated by how many different ways to get the job done. I can only thank you and all the other guys for helping me learn this wonderful hobby in such a friendly open forum. Thanks all!

Some info here https://17jewels.info/movements/s/smiths/smiths-ry-empire/

Just fantastic @nickelsilver As long as I have good health I bet I'll be pointing to this post many, many times in the future! Thank you!

Just the one set I purchased from Goodwill. The center set punch it came with appeared to have been sharpened (poorly) but does the job. I picked up a used punch off eBay with a chipped point. I now have two punches to be refinished! This damn hobby makes a tool junkie out of the best of us!

That tank that's bottom center in the first photo reminds me of my favorite "dress" watch, a Zvezda: 7.75 ‴ x 12.75 ‴ License-built Lip T-18. I drive a Miata with a 6.2L V8, so I'm either all the stereotypes or none.

Thank you for this, I have a number of 844s in my project queue, and these guides have been very helpful in getting them back into shape. There are a few differences I'm struggling with still, but I'd have been fairly lost in a Roskopf without your posts.

There's this, probably cheaper options too.

Perhaps too "Mickey Mouse" with a 11.5cm disk, but I like to try this small 2nd hand machine. It probably needs a speed-control modification with a triac, but that's a bonus & added fun We'll see how we get on ......

I hope this works!

After considerable effort and patience, it's finally ready to be worn for another a century. Thanks everyone for your feedback.

There is a hell of a lot of junk. A high price for junk.