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Showing content with the highest reputation on 01/17/23 in all areas

  1. I have quite a collection of high quality well made Chinese tools that are so identical to the Bergeon and Horotec tools that I am totally convinced that Bergeon and Horotec and many others all have their tools made in China and then just pack them in boxes with made in Switzerland printed on them. The tools are absolutely identical in every way apart from branding, they have identical machining marks, the parts are fully interchangable. The only difference is the price. Don't think the Swiss would do such a thing, remember the whole Swiss watch industry is based on a lie, many claim to be watch makers but are only bracelet and case makers, dropping in some generic movement they bought from the likes of ETA etc, then charging a high price just based on their name. Some of them even though they have a multi million turnover are listed as charities so don't pay a cent in tax (Rolex) for example. If they are dishonest with their tax they are going to be dishonest in ather ways as well. The Swiss watch industry is a shady business from end to end so I find it quite easy to find they have products made in China and claim they make them themselves so they can hike the the price by in some cases a huge amount. Take the Bergeon 4 plunger hand setter, almost a grand, the identical one from China is £100. I have one and compared it side by side with the Bergeon, other than the branding and box there is absolutely no difference with all the parts being fully interchangable. Obviously not all tools from China are worth even their low prices but many are, just do your research before hitting the buy button. That's it, off my soap box. Hat coat door bye
    3 points
  2. Part of the reason for that is everybody has a different experience. I'll have to remember to check the machine at work to see how long it spends in the isopropyl alcohol. But the last rinse is isopropyl alcohol recommended by the manufacture. I think you'll find that some alcohols will dissolve the shellac faster than others and isopropyl isn't super fast. Because as far as I know we've never had a problem with the isopropyl alcohol.
    3 points
  3. This is true. I would say that it is an excellent machine at a very reasonable price compared to the Witschi. I think you paint with a broad brush. Virtually every hobbiest/amateur on this board uses the Weishi and are happy with it as far as I can tell. Furthermore, the Chinese have several semiconductor foundries that produce world-class chips. So they can go to space and mass-produce good semiconductors. I am not offended by your rant...quite enjoy it. But I think your argument is too simplistic...too binary. Buy a Chinese screwdriver and put a Bergeon blade on it. Voila...you have a quality product. Or pay twice and get a Bergeon. I have lots of Bergeon and a couple of Chinese, so I can compare the quality...pretty close except for the blades.
    2 points
  4. Well, they manage to put people into space which seems to suggest some degree of sophistication.
    2 points
  5. also rmove the cannon pinion as well as the day/date complications and expose the motion work problem could be related to any part of it its a matter of reducing it to basics then rebuilding and testing as you go. cheers
    2 points
  6. 2 points
  7. I've spoken with vivat in a private chat, what's happening is when pulling the crown to second position (time setting) it becomes very hard to turn and set the time. I've suggested removing the hands and dial and checking again, then the date/dial giard plate and checking again. It sounds like there's an issue with the motion works.
    2 points
  8. Not easy without causing further damage.. Looking at the pictures the screw next to the troublesome screw is also very badly bruised. A screw extractor or equivalent is a safest bet for me.
    2 points
  9. Horotec also makes those. In act, I bought some, but decided that I would have to have the expensive sharpening equipment to use them effectively, and replaced the tips with regular blades that I could dress with an arkansas stone. Cheers! Horotec also makes those. In act, I bought some, but decided that I would have to have the expensive sharpening equipment to use them effectively, and replaced the tips with regular blades that I could dress with an arkansas stone. This is my go to article about how to dress screwdriver tips. http://members.iinet.net.au/~fotoplot/sdriver/sdriver.html Cheers!
    2 points
  10. I don't know if it's exactly the same as naphtha. It's a hydrocarbon solvent the dries quickly and (according to the manufacturer) leaves no residue. I still do the final rinse in IPA for everything except pallet fork and balance.
    1 point
  11. Here's a guy in Arkansas putting an estate he acquired on ebay. Curious I was. He shows you the stuff with a series of terrible videos. This kind of stuff intrigues me, but this guy is whistling Dixie, IMHO. I tried to find a reason to go buy it but failed.
    1 point
  12. 1 point
  13. Some of these tools are so specialized and have such a limited market (the GY0105 Hand press comes to mind) that I doubt someone in China just decided to copy it. Some are undoubtedly made in the same factories that produced the original for western clients. Does anyone complain about their Iphones made in China (but designed in California) ? Anything shoddy about it? Even in cases where the Chinese version is demonstrably inferior, it may be good enough for the hobbyist especially when the cost of the original is high. My Amscope is no Zeiss. I have used Zeiss microscopes and the optics and general fit of the Amscope are far from them. But it is perfect for the hobbyist I use a cheap Chinese micropipette to dispense the expensive Swiss oil from the tiny bottles. It is no Eppendorf but it works just fine and is affordable. JMT
    1 point
  14. Hi have Chinese tools alongside Bergeon and Horotec. The Chinese tools I fully expected to have to fettle them to make them better. I was disappointed that I had to do the same with the Swiss tools albeit to a lesser degree. However if I spend £100 on a Chinese tool and need to spend 3 hours fettling it compared to an hour fettling a £500 Swiss tool I think I have still won out. Tom
    1 point
  15. I’ve got a Chinese timegrapher, stereo microscope, ultrasonic cleaner, Horia jeweling tool clone etc that I’m quite pleased with. As a hobbyist these Chinese tools have allowed me (as my skills slowly develop) to progress in watch repair in a way I did not think possible when I started. Yesterday I replaced the balance staff and palette fork pivot jewels of a Seiko 1104A practice movement. Have an issue with the hairspring but I’m getting better. The equivalent Swiss tools are not affordable for the hobbyist. My 99 USD jeweling tool clone from China works just fine for my occasional usage. There is also nothing shoddy about it. The Swiss original is 500 GBP for the tool and another 1000 GBP for the set of pump pushers. The original undoubtedly has better fit and finish and for a professional are a necessary investment in their business but I am just a simple hobbyist reading Fried and De Carle books and practicing on a few dozen old ladies movements I bought for 2 USD each from SpeedtimerKollektion.
    1 point
  16. You can also get taken by being deceived by "branding", marketers understand the psychology of this very,very, well.
    1 point
  17. Were currently in the discussion about cleaning products. It would be much better if you started a new discussion on how to replace shellac if it goes missing or something in the appropriate section would be easier to find for others. Because even if you use the correct fluids shellac with time can still go bad and needs to be replaced. Then there's the Chinese glue that doesn't like anything especially if you claim the watch several times. Plus creative people before you that use something that wasn't shellac. So it be good to start a new discussion in the appropriate section on shellac and how to put it back. By the way if you catch it early that you have a problem you can dissolves shellac In the appropriate alcohol and basically make up paint and just touch up that works quite nicely.
    1 point
  18. Difficult? Not really. A PITA? Yes. Most likely places would be the pallet stones, the impulse jewel and possibly the hairspring. In the end, you need to decide what your skill level is and if you feel confident undertaking that level of repair at your skill level. I managed to dissolve the glue that secured the hairspring to the balance on a new ST36 movement and (to me, at the time) it was easier to write off the damaged one and simply buy another movement. I have since moved to using Elma's wash and rinse solutions.
    1 point
  19. I've been pretty happy with my Aliexpress purchases. Not all of them, but most of them.
    1 point
  20. I'm not sure what shellite is, but pure naphtha leaves an oily residue - Which is why it is recommended to do a final (quick, 30s) rinse in IPA. As Mark and JohnR725 mention above, it's what the pro's do.
    1 point
  21. Loupes can be used without causing problems, but your work surface needs to be higher than a standard desk. 38" is a common height. You don't want to be bent or hunched over when you are working. When I first started, I was working on the dining room table, so instead of raising the table I lowered my chair. I sat on a stool with my legs stretched out, so that I was at the right height with respect to the table. Eventually I got better benches.
    1 point
  22. It seems that an attempt to correct the poise was made in the past; if it was at the factory I would think it would be poised without a clear heavy spot, but if it was restaffed, and the staff was a bit undersize for the balance (could be from punching out the staff, or a poor replacement) that can introduce a large poise error as there's no assurance the staff rivets in perfectly centered. Perhaps someone tried to get it better and stopped before it was right. If there's the slightest bend in a pivot that will show as a large poise error. Pivots should be cleaned in clean pithwood, and the ruby jaws of the poising tool likewise cleaned (the pith batons are nice for this). Tool should be level, and make sure the jaws are on the cylindrical part of the pivots, not the cones. I know that all sounds obvious but I've seen grads from watch school not check all the above...
    1 point
  23. Personally I wouldn't touch the dial, and the hands look to be in good condition. The dial has a great vintage appearance that only comes with time and makes it unique.
    1 point
  24. Hi there are quite a lot in the vids it’s just a case of searching, try watch case restoration as a search string. The case it’s self is a bit tatty but to be expected if it’s been worn for a long time but could be improved some what by just brushing with a brass brush. Nothing too vigorous just to improve the look. If you search Cousins uk document downloads you will be able to find a sheet for the 2609. Cheers
    1 point
  25. Typically watchmakers like to steal them because they do. But from the look of your barrel I doubt that even had one. Then as already stated above to work just fine without it. I snipped out a page of the parts catalog. I suspect the other thing we might be seeing is there are probably some variations so some watches probably have the stop works and some did not but they all use the same barrel conceivably. I'm curious about your pocket watch is this your first entry in the watch repair?
    1 point
  26. Hi and welcome to the forum.
    1 point
  27. The naphtha won't dissolve shellac so you're okay there.
    1 point
  28. The Maltese cross (Geneva stop work) is missing: geneva stop work You don‘t need it when using a modern alloy main spring.
    1 point
  29. Nice to meet you! Welcome!
    1 point
  30. Generally consensus is it's a bad idea to put pallet fork and balance in IPA as it will likely dissolve the shellac on the pallet stones and the impulse jewel. Personally I use shellite (naptha) as the final rinse when I'm cleaning. I've found you can ask 100 watch makers this question and get 147 answers though. I would defer to Mark on this one, that's for sure
    1 point
  31. To be 100%safe don’t put parts with shellac in IPA, but realistically IPA >99% is safe for a moment or two which is all that is needed to disperse the deionised water all allow clean drying. I set a timer for 30 seconds and it works well for me.
    1 point
  32. After using the ultrasonic, I was able to see the seam between the center wheel and center pin, confirming that it's not the usual cannon pinion setup that you normally see. The ultrasonic must have cleaned it up enough to loosen it, and I was able to stake out the pin. Thank you for your help.
    1 point
  33. Eep. You could always drill it out if you don't care about preserving the screw...
    1 point
  34. Hello All, Just joining the forum as a newbie-ish tinkerer. I have been collecting obscure watches for a couple of decades, but only recently became interested in electronic/mechanical movements.
    1 point
  35. Hi have a look under the balance wheel, Ican see a logo (makers mark) and there should be a number in your case 2609Ha which is the calibre. There are parts sheets for these watches. It looks in fair condition and would respond to a good service and clean up. The case looks pitted due to the acidic sweat reacting withe the metal. There are a few vids on U Tube if you search for them. All in all a nice piece of Russian tech. Cheers
    1 point
  36. Actually looks like a part of the pawl lever to me. The newer rotary skeletons use seiko clones. I have one with a hz2189g in it, which looks like a clone of a 7002. Can we get a photo of the movement? Depending on the movement they are pretty easy to source a whole new one. Looks like this part.
    1 point
  37. @muddttI printed the basket and cap, thanks to you now I can test it out.
    1 point
  38. Thanks for the information above. I am pretty new to the watch hobby and would like some advice on my cleaning method. Just to place this in context, I live in a part of the world where it is impossible to get dedicated watch cleaning fluids, hence a watch cleaning machine would just be an expensive ornament... (unless anyone can suggest alternative fluids I could use in it that are easily obtainable?). Therefore, I am restricted to an ultrasonic cleaner, my cleaning process is as follows: Disassemble all parts Peg jewels and remove any obvious debris Place into small mesh baskets (replace balance onto main plate) Place all components/baskets in a jar with water and dish detergent and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C Take everything out of the jar Separate out the balance and pallet fork (due to shellac) and dry in a warm place Immediately dip all other baskets/parts in a 99.9% IPA let them sit in the jar for 5-10 mins (the time it takes to make/drink a cup of coffee) to remove water (?) Take everything out of the IPA jar and allow to air dry Place everything into naptha jar (Klean Strip VM & P Naptha) and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C Take everything out of the naptha jar and allow to air dry Place everything into IPA jar and then inside the ultrasonic cleaner for 20 mins at 40 degrees C Take everything out of the IPA jar and allow to air dry Re-assemble watch Can anyone see any steps that are wrong/missing/redundant in the above? I've had a few issues with the hairspring where the hairspring seems to not be cleaned enough, so have tried sitting in a small jar of naptha (no ultrasonic) for about half an hour or maybe more with little improvement. I've also had a few instances where the jewels in the pallet fork have twisted up on re-assemble, maybe the process above is weakening the shellac, or maybe I'm just unlucky?
    1 point
  39. I will concede that a full and matching set of serialized parts are optimal but not a requirement. Compromise must be made depending on circumstances and often are. I am currently still working on an Elgin model 5 for my nephew and every part has been sourced from a different watch (including all the case parts). It has not been the easiest project but is finally running (in the loosest terms) and is installed within its case for safe keeping. It has required careful selection and adjusting of the many parts used so far. Things I still need to source; everything for the balance (it's been running on a borrowed balance), dial, hands, some of the keyless work, crown and crystal. I've been waiting for that point when I just can't get past some new problem and even though it hasn't happened yet, it has still sapped much of my previous enthusiasm. I am still no where close to being finished and it has sat untouched for several months. I have received very little encouragement and have been told by many it is totally impossible and a waste of my time. My nephew is stopping by tomorrow and I'm hoping that will restore much of my interest. Everyone's interests are important to them. Thanks and have a good night. Shane
    1 point
  40. Hi I am with Karl on this one clean up and tidy the area to make it as presentable as possible and re assemble the watch and monitor its performance. The pocketwatchdatabase.com is the place to look up the serial number, if listed it will give you chapter and verse.
    1 point
  41. 1 point
  42. They say with the right tool it makes the job easier.
    1 point
  43. as usual problems in the horological discussions can occur like here. Whacking with a hammer seems a bit harsh like very bad things would occur except it's how I take my lids off the barrels of the watches that I work on. There typically American pocket watch lids. I've try because there's a notch and I know what the notch is for I've tried I usually can't get the screwdriver underneath I usually scratch the edge of the barrel and usually the lid does not come. Somewhere in my life somebody showed me somewhere whacking with a hammer works really well. Okay everyone take a deep breath the world did not come to the end because I whacked with a hammer. As far as I can tell I've never had distortion of the lid because these are like small clocks in a way they're very thick and it's a very sudden fast impact. If it's something modern I usually put it in the palm of my hand use the backside of the tweezers and just push the arbor and pop the lid off. That method corresponds sort of like the image I attached of how the Swiss perceive you should remove the modern lid. Then they also recommend putting it back together without the mainspring and verifying that the lid is flat and not distorted.
    1 point
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