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As promised, here is my attempt at replacing a broken Balance staff. I broke the staff over 3 years ago and am now starting the process. I have been slowly amassing the proper tools to do the job and have been studying and hanging out on forums such as this one. While i am very mechanically inclined i have no experience whatsoever and I realize that reading and watching videos is no substitute for real world experience. Having said all that, how hard could it be... I bought the replacement staff from ebay three years ago. Research came up with a 1703A staff which I am told is for the later runs of the 1892 movement. Long waist versus short waist. The main tools I will be using will be my K&D 600 staking set which i had a lot of fun restoring and am still working on completing. I believe this was a set that was purchased to complete another set as the jeweling attachment is missing the lever. But most of the stakes are there as well as the stumps and the die plate is in excellent shape. The roller remover is the most recent purchase and was bought from Uncle Larry's. Unfortunately the No1 stake was broken. Was not able to see the damage when I purchased it. Hopefully this was an honest oversight and not hidden on purpose. Luckily, my staking set had a set of three stakes and two anvils that turned out to be for a roller remover set. the one I purchased is a C,E, Marshall set. The broken staff and the start of my journey into the world of Horology The first thing that needs to be done is remove the hairspring from the balance. After marking the stud position on the balance rim, the balance was placed in the die plate of the staking tool (I don't have a bench block yet) and a screwdriver was inserted into the split collar and gently twisted the collar back and forth and the hairspring slid right off. A set of hand levers would have been a better choice, but they are still on my too purchase list. I do wonder if using the twist off method opens up the split collar to any degree? The first of many questions to come. The next step is to remove the roller table. For this, the balance was placed in the anvil which was placed in the die plate and a light tap on the No. 2 stake and the staff still attached to the balance dropped straight down leaving the two part roller assembly. When I see the tips of these stakes broken, and how little force is required to do the job, how in the heck does one manage to break them?? So far so good Now on to the staff removal. I was fortunate to find a K&D balance staff remover tool among the parts when doing inventory of the staking set. Once i reviewed the videos on it's use it was time to try it out myself. I found the larger of the two stakes fit the staff the best. I think the thinner of the two is for wristwatch size staffs. Once I had figured out how to set up the remover in the staking tool, all it took was two light but firm taps with the hammer on the stake and the staff was lying at the bottom of the staking tool. There is no apparent damage to the balance at all. The two staffs side by side. I will measure to be sure as best I can, but the replacement looks to be correct. So far the removal has been a success, and i hope the installation of the new staff goes as well. I wonder if this is a friction fit staff due to the ease of removal of the old one? Any thoughts from the pocket watch crowd? The installation of the staff will have to wait until she who must be obeyed renovation projects are brought up to speed. Ordered my new Bergeon screwdrivers and the first of the mobious oil to keep me happy in the meantime. The cheap indian screwdrivers were a joke to say the least and was comical watching the tips fall out every time you went to use them and stripping the set screws in frustration. Madame is off to New York city in a week, so perhaps i will get time to attempt the staff install then... Ron...6 points
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Hi Pip, I was trained to set all the hands at 12. As said previously, advance the watch until the day and date change, at that point fit the hour hand, I advance 24 hours again to make sure it's on the money, date must change first, followed closely by day, (I was trained at a Rolex funded school, these were their tolerances) once happy with hour hand alignment fit minute, again at 12, once again advance 24 hours to confirm day and date change are correct, a consistent date change in a 4 minute window is acceptable, two minutes to and two minutes after 12. Again set seconds hand with all hands at 12. The reason for this is you can get your hand spacing correct, the space from the dial to the hour hand, hour to minute, minute to seconds should all be consistent, obviously as said earlier it is vital the seconds clears the crystal, if that is an issue lower the whole hand group, again you are looking for equal gaps between the hands, small points like this really make a watchmaker stand out from the crowd, make it a habit! Good luck and keep enjoying working on your watches.3 points
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i want to really thank you Bob and Brian for your replies. The bubbles watching the video i posted when i try the waterproof test came out from the push buttons so i thought the problem is the rubber gaskets , i cleaned very well the stainless steel tubes and put new gaskets but some bubbles still came out. You both made me think and i ordered a red loctite and a novostar push button grease from my local dealer , he didnt had fomblin , I was using waterproof silicone grease, i hope that was the problem. Overall cant see any bubbles from other spots coming out. I will keep you updated, thanks again.2 points
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My G P told me that writing down notes would help me. The problem I have is I can't remember where I put the notes2 points
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No need Pip, I know it was! Thank you Brian, those are excellent details. Much appreciated! Cheers2 points
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One can set the second hand anywhere convenient. I too try very hard to have it pointing exactly at one of the second marks, not between them. That's less important with a mechanical watch, which usually advances 5 or more times per second, but important with a battery operated watch which advances only once per second. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk2 points
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Auto oilers take a little practice to get comfortable with them, I only use two, one with 9010 and the other HP1300, if I was to use D5 I'd apply that the old fashioned way with an oiler, I do find it a bit thin tho and it can be a little messy looking if it spreads, I tend to use a Rolex grease MR4 in its place. Be real careful with amounts of oil on your needle, important to be in control of this, you can vary the oil amount by limiting the travel of the needle into the reservoir by adjusting the eccentric screw, also by the speed you do it, slowly will give you lots and fast will give you less, once you get the hang of them they do increase your oiling and servicing speed as you can lubricate numerous oiling points at one go, takes a little practice tho so take your time and begin slowly and carefully. Remember at all times to work cleanly, this is probably the best advice I could give you as your overhaul has your signature on it, be proud of it! Good luck and I hope this helps you a little, let me know how you get on.2 points
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Brain, what a fabulous clock!! Hello Kaari, sure, only lubricate those points recommended in the repair notes, nothing else.2 points
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I've had this cushion cased Seamaster for a few years and wore it off and on. For some reason I was under the impression it had a10xx series movement which is not really as nice as the 5xx / 7xx series. The movement is running fine but the movt seemed to be a bit loose in the case, noticeable when the crown is pulled to set the time. Also there was a gap between the dial and the chapter ring at the 2-4 o'clock position (above picture is after, didn't take a 'before'). Well I took it apart last weekend to see if I could fix these issues. First thing I was happy to note is that the movement is a 752, not a 10xx, can't explain why I thought differently. The next thing I noticed was that the movement was stuck fast in the case. Taking a closer look it seemed that the movement ring/holder is not correct for this case being too small. To solve this problem someone had jammed some bits of old o-ring around the edges to hold the movement in place. This bits of o-ring had degraded into a gooey like substance which was a pain to remove from the case and movement ring. The caseback gasket was also as hard as a rock. The movement ring fitted to this watch, while did not seem to be correct for this case, was correct for the 752 movement. Fitted to the movement/dial the dial and stem-hold lined up perfectly. This made me step back and re-look at the movement ring again. I noticed that it had a groove which seemed to be made for an o-ring, also the case had a sizeable gap which seemed to indicate that there would be something (absorber) which would fit this gap and afford some level of bump protection, similar to what Certina did with their DS series. The absorber would not be a full ring as hole for the stem was in the middle of the groove in the movement ring, again, this is what Certina did as their movement absorber had a gap for the stem.. Well to cut a long story short, I had some 1mm and 1.5mm section o-rings and these fit in well enough so that the dial sits flush and the movement is held firmly in place. The bump-protection offered by the o-ring is not much as compared to the ring in the Certina DS it is much stiffer, the one in the Certina being more 'spongy'. Anyone have any experience with this model and can shed some light on this model? Another issue I found was this big bump on the caseback sealing surface which corresponds to one of the tool slot on the back. Probably someone used a chisel to get the caseback off in the past? Had to file and sand it down otherwise it would've ripped the new caseback o-ring. Finally.. as this has a 752 movt.. I think I'll be wearing this more often so it deserves a service soon! I can explain why having a different movement will affect my attraction to a watch but that's how it is! Anil1 point
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Take your time. Watch Mark's videos. I might use a 4x loupe depending on the size of the movement. Give the train a slight spin as you go to make sure the pivots are seated correctly.1 point
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Sounds like they have you between a rock and a hard place SSTEEL. <grin> On a lamp related question. Which lamp(s) does Mark use? I bought a LED lamp off Amazon that is okay for light output but it comes from a rather small area. So the light is easy blocked by head, hands or tools. Just curious if you knew the specific lamp Mark is using or you had found something similar.1 point
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Ok, here is my take. The screw fixing the stud in place is missing, which has allowed the stud to move out of place, causing problems. The most like reason the stud won't come out is that the screw was tightened enough to raise a burr on the stud, which is catching as you try to move it out. As you said, it will require a bit of a tap to get it out, and then the burr will need to be addressed and a new screw put in place. Have Fun!1 point
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I like it as it is Cad! Still, show us what your come up with after the mod! Cheers, Bob1 point
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Thanks for the tips, I've got the replacement needle so I'll give it another go soon. I also appreciate the comment about cleanliness, I just drove myself half crazy because I was using One-Dip that had been contaminated by a plastic jar cap. Demagnetize the balance, clean the hairspring, but darn it, is the hairspring is deformed! Tease with pin and #5 tweezer, the thing is actually sticking together. Repeat demag and clean with same result. Hmmmm. Notice that One-Dip has red tint, is supposed to be clear. The top of the jar is red, doesn't look eaten away, but still - New One-Dip in a different jar, and all is good. One good thing is that because I thought the hairspring was deformed, I did a bunch of practicing on old hairsprings, trying to get them in the best shape I could. Need more practice, but I'm getting there.1 point
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Hey Brian, Yes I can see that is low on this pictures, but I seems to remember that this have been like 230 or 260. I think this watch have higher amplitude when fully wind up. Or should this not have nothing to say? The watch now keeps the time pretty good, it goes like between -7 to + 5 in a average...1 point
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I love your dedication to this project I know that I with your determination your going to get it up and running in a respectable manner in the not so distant future.1 point
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Correction Dan, the diameter of the stick/peg "indentation" is the actual diameter of the spring housing....i.e. the spring will "dome" into the peg and as you rotate it, it will get into position and lock in (there is a groove where it fits in).1 point
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You say you have made a mess, to me that indicates you have used too much. Wash it out again and use a minuscule amount around the wheels.1 point
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PROGRESS REPORT, SEPTEMBER 11, 2016 My watch is now running just as a dog walks on two legs: he doesn't do it well, but that he does it at all is remarkable. I inserted the new fourth wheel with no difficulty. I even found the wheel bridge screw I lost last week, and re-inserted it. (The replacement I had ordered hoping it would be the right size did not fit.) As you can hear and see in the attached video, the watch is running, but running quite irregularly. Notice, please, how eccentric the hairspring is relative to the balance staff, with most of it evident above the balance staff in the video. I think that that hairspring is the cause of the irregularity. https://vimeo.com/182327048 I was hoping that I wouldn't need to address the hairspring, but the watch gave up the ghost after about only four hours. I've never repaired a hairspring before, and I am concerned that my intervention may worsen the problem. I removed the balance assembly, and somehow got the hairspring out from between the index pins. (I couldn't find a slot for a twist of a screwdriver as Mark shows in his videos.). But the stud seems to be stuck in its hole in the balance cock. (See picture.) Because there is no screw in the hole perpendicular to the stud, I am assuming that it's a friction fit stud. Does that seem right to y'all? How do I remove the stud? Taking a carpenter's hammer to it seems excessive.1 point
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Well while we are at the confessional, this in from our UK correspondent today (in my defence it's my first every strip down and service attempt) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk1 point
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The calibre is a 17.8 SC or otherwise known as a R300 i believe ? The balance was stripped down completely, the upper cap jewel was treated for rust, regulator boot adjusted, the hairspring was carefully formed back to correct shape which took most time. The whole assembly needed a thorough clean and a careful hand, but the watch runs within a minute or so and only a 0.3 beat error. I will likely never wear it tbh as i like collecting this type and admiring it I noticed also the original lume still glows quite well for the age ha ha Oh and cheers Bob for the welcoming return1 point
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Meant to say don't remove the pusher tubes if you don't need to, they more than likely are not the cause of the leak you are experiencing, I would expect it's within the pusher assembly itself, fomblin on the gaskets there will be adequate. Looking at the condition of the watch in your picture the pusher tubes will be perfect so leave them in.1 point
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If the threaded tubes for the pushers come out they should be thoroughly cleaned and replaced back into the case with a little red loctite, the pushers themselves are ok to leave dry but you must lubricate all the round gaskets on the pusher assembly with fomblin, this is how they are assembled and overhauled in the service centers. I totally agree with bobm12, if you've got some moisture in that watch get it serviced pronto, failing to will be asking for rust to develop and nobody wants that in their nice time piece. It's a nice watch, look after it.1 point
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Hi Parmenion, I suppose that if you want to put something there it should be Silicon Grease...Being an Omega, I would send it to a professional...maybe to the official service center since you are really using it" If it was like I do mine (it sits in my collection hardly getting wrist time), I would not worry about it....Now, the point is, you got already humidity in the watch, that's no good so a service is required...full service for peace of mind. JMHO. Cheers, Bob PS. It will not be a cheap maintenance though!1 point
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Auto oilers are very good if used correctly, ALWAYS remove cap and hole jewel assembly if you can, only way to clean them fully which is critical to get good amplitude once your service is complete, once cleaned, fit jewels together and oil thru hole jewel ( you can control how much oil is dispensed by how far back you draw the needle and speed of draw, quickly needle holds less, slowly it holds more ) takes a little practice, then fit back into the movement securing the incabloc shock spring. You can use the oiler to lubricate pivots and oil train wheel jewels, again practice is the key to control amount and location, remember it is very important to keep the top of the jewels spotlessly clean as any oil on there will draw all the oil in the sink up and away from where it should be. Practice is the key, remember to work clean. Good luck!1 point
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You can also use David Boettcher's calculator here: http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/blogmainsprings.php The height of the spring should be about 0.2 mm less than the space in the barrel with the cap on. The most important characteristic is the thickness as force will vary with the cube of that. The length is less critical. David's simple calculator will just work off the inner diameter of the barrel, and work back to thickness on the basis of ideal number of turns and fill ratio. S1 point
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Well in the back of one of my draws,i Found a slim sekonda pocket watch, Reketa 2209. Not too sure why I decided to fix it up,other than the fact that it wasn't working. Needed a mainspring or so I thought, hmmm teeth missing on the barrel, fixed that and then I found that the second wheel also had teeth missing. When I tried to get the second wheel I thought iwas going mad, no 2nd wheel listed, turns out it's listed as a intermediate wheel or a transmission wheel. Well I got it working now, it's not one I would normally do but, well a change is as good as a rest. I had a look on the internet to see what was said about the movement , turns out that people don't like working on it because it has five wheels Under the plate, what a lot of rubbish, I managed it after 2 pints of Stella, and it's running like a dream. I thought I have a 1/2 decent picture of the dial but I can't find one, but to look at the dial it looks like any other sekonda watch.1 point
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You could find some new gaskets on Cousinsuk. if you could installed them yourself? Change case back gasket and helium valve gasket also. Then it would propebly work again . Pusher Gasket, Omega 088NS0437 https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/omega-case-parts1 point
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Progress report, September 5, 2016. I am more convinced than before that the fourth wheel was the (current) culprit in stopping my watch. The wheel itself seemed perfectly true in the flat to me (see photo). But I noticed that the wheel was not sitting perfectly perpendicular to its arbor (see second photo). As I was inspected the wheel, trying to figure out if I could use a staking tool to rectify (pun intended) the angle between the arbor and the plane of the wheel, the little **BLEEP** leaped out of my tweezers, striking my nose. It has not been seen since then. The wheel, that is; my nose remains in its customary place and configuration. I'll also attach a photo of the carpeted floor under my workbench, enough to give hives to any proper watchmaker. Such is my lot. For me to replace the carpet, I'd have to get a divorce, and I didn't have in mind to spend that much money. One tiny benefit of the loss of the fourth wheel is that, during my search in the carpet, I found the crown wheel ring which I had lost weeks ago (and for which I serendipitously already had a replacement). So now I've ordered a replacement fourth wheel, as well as a replacement screw for the wheel bridge which I THINK is the proper size. I share these travails with you to give encouragement and caution to fellow newbies. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk1 point
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When you first cleaned the movement did you open the mainspring barrel? and if so what state was the main spring in? When there is a problem with insufficient power at the output end of the system it's worth bearing in mind that as well as losses within the system the problem could be insufficient power going into the system at the other end. If you took the mainspring out for inspection, cleaning and re-ubricating, how did you get it back in? hand winding or mainspring winder? The main spring should lie flat on the work bench without any twisting or buckling. If it doesn't then power will be lost in the barrel as the edge of the main spring bears against the barrel lid and base. It is very easy when hand winding a spring back into the barrel to introduce out of flat distortions which is why a main spring winder is so useful; it significantly reduces the risk of this kind of problem. With the spring out of the barrel did you check the end shake, side shake, and free rotation of the barrel around the arbor, this is another potential source of loss. Once you are happy with all of the above and you have checked that all of the pivot holes are really clean and there are no cracked or chipped jewels then the next step is to test at each stage of reassembly. Sometimes the only way to isolate the problem is to test each wheel individually, even if it means lots of taking apart and putting back together again. Start with the barrel bridge. Install the barrel and test its freedom to rotate in situ, then move on to the train bridge and install just 1 wheel and put the bridge back on. Test the freedom of the wheel using a blower, and check side and end shake. Once you are happy add the next wheel, replace the bridge and test again. If all is well then add the next, if not then take out all of the wheels except the last one installed and test that one on its own. If it doesn't spin freely on its own then the place to focus on is the pivots. If it does spin freely on its own then reinstall the next wheel back to see how it performs when it interacts with that. If that is where the problem is then inspect the teeth on both wheels and pinions; you're looking for debris, and damaged or worn teeth. Also check the pivots again. It is possible that a pivot which is slightly bent can still spin freely in its jewels on its own but has a lateral oscillation which can interfere with the depthing with its neighbour. Follow this systematically through the entire train from main spring to escape wheel and you should find the issue.1 point