Jump to content

Recommended Posts

The concave shape of the brushes is from wear; they are manufactured straight.  I would re-insert them in their original orientation. It will cause excessive wear on the commutator to rotate the brushes and little gained from the exercise.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some updates! Painting complete:

IMG_2762.thumb.JPG.544554cb7cf4e434893acd137ab4cbbd.JPG

Next project is a slight modification to allow it take a modern Elma basket holder. The outside screw thread of the motor shaft is too wide for the Elma holder, but there is conveniently an interior screw shaft that was used to hold a spring:IMG_2758.thumb.JPG.493642074e20f5fb4a9e67f56d80836a.JPG

This allows me to attach the Elma bracket with a screw running through it. It will hold the baskets at about the same level the original holder did:

IMG_2760.thumb.JPG.60a72e8075ba3973fe490f0afda346d6.JPG

Now, the issue I foresee here is getting the bracket centred so that it spins on its axis, rather than offset to one side. The screw thread on the motor shaft is an Imperial 2BA - had to be specially ordered. The screw shaft is narrower than the Elma bracket's hole, though. There's a retaining pin that I can use to hold it in place (I'll add some locking washers also), but the trick will be getting everything centred. I'm thinking of a shim of some sort, but bits for this screw diameter seem to be hard to come by. The original Brenray basket holder, the new Elma bracket, and the screw:

IMG_2759.thumb.JPG.16ee50d2f72812d19babecda7d7b19b9.JPG

The Elma bracket fits almost perfectly in the old basket holder, so I'm hoping to use it as a makeshift jig to get everything centred. It'll take a little eyballing and adjusting, but I'm hoping it will be good enough:

IMG_2761.thumb.JPG.13d34b3e2cf1b3c450824f211d03a0be.JPG

As always, any thoughts or suggestions are very much appreciated!

Edited by Hammer2017
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put everything together, except for the heating plate, which I've given up on and am waiting for a replacement for. Motor spins up well, although I didn't think to check if the speed control is working. However, the bulb, which has been replaced, didn't work. The heating plate isn't connected, so the wires leading to it are loose. Might the bulb not be working because this circuit hasn't been closed, or is this more likely indicative of another problem elsewhere?

Very much looking forward to having this up and running so I can get back to watches! At this point I think I might have been better off buying a refurbished one and putting in some of the time I've spent on this one in overtime instead!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's coming along nicely.  For the basket holder assembly, I'd see about shimming between the screw and the bushing on the new Elma holder.  Shimming will ensure that the new basket holder is true.  It would be nice if you can find someone with a lathe to make a custom part.  That way you could secure the holder using the supplied set screw.  If you eventually end up using the screw to secure the part, then you should probably use Loctite to secure the bolt; not too strong, something like Loctite Blue.

Correct, the bulb isn't working because the circuit is not complete.  When you get the new element and hook it up, the bulb should work. What happened with the heating element?  Was it shorted out because of the rust?

Edited by robmack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I made a small plastic shim for it. I stuck my dremel in a vice, put the bit of plastic in and filed it as it spun, so a makeshift lathe I guess! Seems to have worked. I hadn't thought of the locktite, so thanks for that. I have a bottle or two of varying strengths on my tool table.

The old heating plate was just a rusty mess, and I couldn't live with putting it back in after everything else was cleaned up. Despite my best efforts with rust removers and a wire brush, I couldn't get it cleaned off. Also, the sheared bolt was stuck fast, so I wouldn't have had any way to fix it to the housing again, and I didn't want to have it rattle around inside. I'm told that with the modern cleaning fluids, heat isn't so important for drying, but I want to have the machine in restored condition, not cobbled together, so I decided to replace it.

The last thing that I want to look at is the control panel. The paint and writing on it is pretty worn and illegible. It's a standard metal plate sign. Any ideas on what can be done to bring these back up to spec? One approach I was thinking of was doing it out on photoshop, printing it on photo paper, gluing it on and clear coating it. I don't think that's a great solution though. I'd prefer to get the original restored if I can, but I don't even know where to start on that one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talk with a local vinyl sign maker to see if they can reproduce the lettering.  You'll probably need high resolution scans or photos for them to create the reproduction lettering.  Then, you would refinish the panel and apply the lettering.  The OEM lettering is normally created using padprinting techniques and you can research whether there is a local firm who can do that type of work, if you want an authentic restoration. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Next project is a slight modification to allow it take a modern Elma basket holder. The outside screw thread of the motor shaft is too wide for the Elma holder, but there is conveniently an interior screw shaft that was used to hold a spring:IMG_2758.thumb.JPG.493642074e20f5fb4a9e67f56d80836a.JPG

IMG_2760.thumb.JPG.60a72e8075ba3973fe490f0afda346d6.JPG

Now, the issue I foresee here is getting the bracket centred so that it spins on its axis, rather than offset to one side. The screw thread on the motor shaft is an Imperial 2BA - had to be specially ordered. The screw shaft is narrower than the Elma bracket's hole, though. There's a retaining pin that I can use to hold it in place (I'll add some locking washers also), but the trick will be getting everything centred. I'm thinking of a shim of some sort, but bits for this screw diameter seem to be hard to come by. The original Brenray basket holder, the new Elma bracket, and the screw:

 

I don't know if I completely understand. It is not possible to take the entire basket holder off and then have created an adapter from xx to 8mm. (elma) ... ?

Is it the thread to the old spring that is  2BA approx. 4, 7 mm. Or is it the thread on the motor shaft?

Edited by maclerche
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I don't know if I completely understand. It is not possible to take the entire basket holder off and then have created an adapter from xx to 8mm. (elma) ... ?

Is it the thread to the old spring that is  2BA approx. 4, 7 mm. Or is it the thread on the motor shaft?

I can take that old basket bracket off - the old spring thread is in the  interior of the motor shaft. I left it on as there are 'propellors' on the top that I thought might be needed to agitate the cleaning fluid. If they aren't, I can take that old plate off. I don't know what more I'd need in terms of an adaptor for the Elma basket, but the way I've done it in the photo seems to work. I'm always open to a better way of doing it though!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 I can take that old plate off. I don't know what more I'd need in terms of an adaptor for the Elma basket, but the way I've done it in the photo seems to work. I'm always open to a better way of doing it though!

Okay now I understand. If you remove the basket frame bracket what do you get then? An engine shaft xx mm. or a thread?

I believe that the spring in elma holder is propeller also, but I'm not sure.

The solution you have come up with is probably not completely crazy since it only requires a bushing from the screw diameter to the 8 mm. that "elma" require.  Brass should be fine enough for this!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The motor shaft has a screw thread on the outside also. I can't remember exactly what size it was, but it was 9.5 mm or something like that - another imperial size. It was too big to fit into the Elma basket's opening.

I don't have access to any heavier machining tools, so fabricating metal parts with threads isn't a good option for me, although getting an adaptor made with 2BA on one side and 8mm on the other would probably be the best solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is what I would do! I would unplug it all and mount the engine horizontally on a work bench or other stable place. Then I would make a post/hand rest next to the motor shaft. I would then get/buy a turning tool/steel (or that the name is) and turn the motor shaft down to 8 mm. bit by bit ....  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Here is what I would do! I would unplug it all and mount the engine horizontally on a work bench or other stable place. Then I would make a post/hand rest next to the motor shaft. I would then get/buy a turning tool/steel (or that the name is) and turn the motor shaft down to 8 mm. bit by bit ....  

That's definitely the best option, but it's way beyond my skill set to do, and I'm sure I'd ruin it if I tried!

I'm going to get those brass bushings and use them instead of the plastic one I made.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, we're all up and running with this, with one exception...

When I turn on the heater, the bulb comes on as it should, but that spring resistor connecting the two points glows up to bright orange in a second or two, and the bulb pops.

The spring seems to be soldered to the two points ok, and I'm not really sure what's wrong here, or how to fix it. This has me at a bit of a dead end with it, as everything else (including my new heating plate) is working as its supposed to. Any and all suggestions are very much appreciated!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Ok, we're all up and running with this, with one exception...

When I turn on the heater, the bulb comes on as it should, but that spring resistor connecting the two points glows up to bright orange in a second or two, and the bulb pops.

 

what voltage is the bulb? did you change or renew and of the wires?   Do you have so soldering tools so you can rewire ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only rewiring I've done is the two frayed looking wires on the left of the pic. I've replaced them with 6amp wire - the switch is rated for 3 amps, so I presume the wire has a higher current rating than I need.

The bulb is an identical replacement to the one that was in it - I'll have to double check the numbers as I'm away from the machine at the moment. I evened out the spring top left, so it's only touching at the solder points. It's the one that's heating up. The heating plate connected to the two wires on the left is getting hot - I think as it's supposed to - so that bit seems to be working. The problem (I hope) is limited the bulb fitting, and something to do with the spring, judging by the way it's heating up.

I can solder a bit - not brilliant, but I can usually make a good connection.

IMG_2751.thumb.JPG.ab8dc3a4f9c84fccf364abd6bd6fba60.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an old machine, so just because that bulb was the one that was in it when I bought it, doesn't mean it's the correct one! I should say that it was not working when I got the machine.

Am I correct in assuming that the spring between the bulb terminals should not be glowing up red hot like that?

The heating element is the Elma replacement for 230V cleaning machines. This is the only marking on the plate:

HC5114-2.jpg.525d68fda013bfdca54fad7287697910.jpg

Also, thanks again for your help with this!

Edited by Hammer2017
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The spring (resistor) is in series with the heating element so the full current drawn by the heater is passing through it.  If you replaced the heater with one of a larger wattage rating that the OEM, then more current will be demanded from the mains, thus more current will pass through the resistor than it was designed to endure, and the bulb will burn out because more voltage will be dropped across the resistor due to the lower resistance of the larger heater (assuming a greater wattage rating as mentioned earlier).  Are you positive the replacement heater had the exact same characteristics as the original?

My guess is that the resistor should not be glowing; that just doesn't seem right.  The replacement looks to be a Kapton heater.  Is there a built-in thermistor or some sort of temperature limiting device with this heater? There's no such evidence apparent from the photo above.  Are you certain that this Elma heater is designed to have full 230V applied to it?  If not, you may have to insert a pulse-width modulated (PWM) controller in series with the heater to limit and manage its temperature.

As a stop-gap solution, find out the characteristics of the heater and whether is can endure full 230V applied and, if so, bypass the coiled resistor with a wire short circuit.  This will temporarily protect the resistor. Then, as suggested, put in a 230V neon lamp across the 230V supply rails to the heater to act as an ON-OFF indicator.  Monitor the warmth being emitted by the new heater in these early days to make sure that it only warms the fluid to manufacturer specifications for cleaning (around 60 - 80 degrees max IIRC).  If the heater goes full blast and overheats the fluid, then it's time to search for a PWM temperature controller to manage the temperature.  These devices are readily available on Ebay.

Edited by robmack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've no idea what the old heating plate was rated for - it was a rusted mess with no markings. I'm beginning to think I'm way out of my depth on this, and that it might be time to take it to a specialist for rewiring... I just don't have a clue about electrics, and it's proving to need more work than I had thought.

For the time being I might forego the heating plate. I've been told that modern cleaning fluids don't need heat to aid with drying nearly so much as the old one, so hopefully spin drying will be enough!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 I just don't have a clue about electrics, and it's proving to need more work than I had thought.

 

Dont give up, you dont need that...  if you can do that two wires then you can do the rest...

find a 230V bulb and a 60 degree klixon-thermostat.  there is a lot of them out there... 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10mm-UNIVERSAL-INDICATOR-RED-LIGHT-NEON-ELECTRIC-BULB-PUSH-INN-SNAP-FIT-230V-/322441068293?hash=item4b12fc3f05:g:aVcAAOSwuxFYuc7o

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KSD301-NC-60-degree-10A-Thermostat-Temperature-Switch-Bimetal-Disc-KLIXON-/141462899540?hash=item20efd88b54:g:hx0AAOSwhQhY3prT

 

follow this simple but useful diagram and it will work!!!

You must fasten the klixon to the heating chamber you might need a 40 degree depending on where you can place it...

 

diagram.png

Edited by maclerche
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for that! I had thought that if the heater had a higher power draw, it would just under perform with what the supply could provide, not that it would pull more through! I'll take another look at it this weekend with that diagram in mind. I really appreciate your help on it - hopefully that will get it all up and working!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • in general this shouldn't be any change. but in general questions like this it be nice to know the specifics of the watch in other words how was it performing before it was cased up and what is it doing now.
    • just as a reminder this watch is a Swatch group product. This will bring up a problem like spare parts and technical information. that I found some links to some information on when I talk about your watch and some of the technical and basically your watch is equivalent to 2834-2 for which I'm attaching the technical sheets. But equivalent does not mean exactly the same you want to do a search on the group for C07 as we discussed this watch before including the technical differences how it's supposed to be regulated and basically because it's watch group there is no parts availability. https://calibercorner.com/eta-caliber-c07-xxx/   https://www.chrono24.com/magazine/eta-movements-from-the-2824-2-to-the-powermatic-80-p_80840/ https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/h-10-movement-details.4636991/ eta CT_2834-2_FDE_481857_15.pdf
    • people be honest.... Swatch is evil for the watchmakers and repairers, BUT not everything in watches from Switzerland is from the Swatch-Group. As far as i know, Selitta got sacked by Swatch as a Movement-Assembler for them and they started to produce Movements in their own Name with slight Modifications. As far as i know, they sell Parts to the Market for their Movements. In most cases, if a ETA-Movement fails, it is a valid Option to replace it with a Selitta Movement, which i consider the Solution for this Mess with the Swatch-Group...... I have no Connection to anybody at Selitta, but being a Swiss-Guy, i still like to have Swiss-Made Watches, but not from the Swatch-Group.   ok ? regards, Ernst
    • Just one more greedy act by Swatch. They started a number of years ago here in the US..cutting off supplies to watchmakers that could build complications that many Swatch houses couldn't even touch. Old school masters who had gone through some of the most prestigious houses in the world. Otto Frei has some statements on their page about it. I tell all my customers to avoid new Swiss watches like the plague,..unless they just want an older one in their collection that still has some parts out on the market, or they have really deep pockets and don't mind waiting months and paying through the nose to get it back. Plenty of others to choose from..IE Seiko,..or other non-swiss brands Even a number of Chinese brands are catching up with the Swiss,..and I think that in time, their actions will be their downfall
    • Yes. If that's not what you are experiencing...start looking for something rubbing. A 1st guess is that one of the hands is rubbing against the hole in the center of the dial. Especially if you now have lower amplitude in face up/ face down positions.
×
×
  • Create New...