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The speed control knob turns with no problem at all, i think it has just had its day tbh. Its not a major issue but id like to have a low speed for the drying cycle.

I'm just saying that the motor itself could be gummed up, and changing the controller would not help that. If the motor turns easily by hand, it's probably fine. 

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I did consider the motor but it runs freely without resistance, so im going for the most likely culprit. It would be nice to have the speed fully under control so i can spin and dry  ha ha, but ive used it for so long like this now im in no rush.

 

Thanks clockwatcher i may just take you up on two of those jars ( if you have two 107x107x165's that'll be great ), have one for rinse and a spare :)

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Does the motor run well at other speeds? I am just trying to get at is if it's a motor problem more specifically a motor brush problem.

Being that it has been in service for a while this is one consideration. Certainly, the speed controller ( potentiometer ) is the other likely culprit..

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Still hard to tell at this point. Variable speed ( brushed motors ) is dependent on current. Low current/voltage for low speed may not effectively conduct thru worn brushes but may do so at higher current/voltage. However, your speed controller may have a dead spot.

Sorry, can't tell at this point. It would behoove you to investigate the motor brushes.

Cheers

Ed

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  • 1 year later...

Great price & what looks like a good machine. There seems to to be a good crop of cleaning machines on the bay just lately. Just remember for those in the UK import charges are normally required from the US.

Spotted this one recently;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/antique-clock-or-watchmakers-vintage-watch-cleaning-machine-/152424054964?hash=item237d2e80b4:g:qHQAAOSwnHZYlf5I

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3 hours ago, clockboy said:

Great price & what looks like a good machine. There seems to to be a good crop of cleaning machines on the bay just lately. Just remember for those in the UK import charges are normally required from the US.

Spotted this one recently;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/antique-clock-or-watchmakers-vintage-watch-cleaning-machine-/152424054964?hash=item237d2e80b4:g:qHQAAOSwnHZYlf5I

Yeah there has been loads on there since xmas,I normally use an ultrasonic but can rattle jewels out but good for getting broken screws out,I can't believe nobody has put a bid on it yet, I think it's the same as marks.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster:D

I've recently picked up an old Brenray cleaning machine that I want to get back in action. It's actually working perfectly - the motor spins and the heater heats up. However, it's very dirty and the paint is peeling off. I'm going to do a full clean, paint strip and repaint. I've had a look at a few of the older posts on this, so have an idea where I'm heading (I didn't want to hijack one of them!).

My main question regards the heating plate. There is a wired heating disc sandwiched between two heating square metal plates (iron I presume) with a bolt and nuts holding the three pieces together and securing it to the floor of the machine. As I said, the plate works and heats up, but the two plates, bolt and nuts are rusted solid. I sheared the end of the bolt off while trying to get the nut holding it to the floor off. A soak in deruster/wd40, replace the bolt, clean the plates and replace is one plan (please correct me if you think this might cause problems or damage the heating plate). The other is to get a replacement Elma heating pad which, at 80mm is about the same size. My question is this - will I need to get new metal (iron?) plates to reform the sandwich, or can that new plate go in on its own?

Also, the motor is running well, but it is filthy. What is the best way to approach this - I'm utterly ignorant here, so any tips or advice will be very much appreciated! I'll post some pics as I go along if people want to follow the process!

Thanks for reading!

Mark

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Pictures would really help here.  Through a Google search, I found a picture of the insides of a Benray cleaning machine which seems to match your description.Vintage-Brenray-Watch-And-Instrument-Cle

Based on that picture, that assembly seems to exist in a severe environment (moist, possibly acidic and hot) so it's not surprising that rust has formed.  Your plan to soak in penetrating oil to loosen the bolts is sound.  The best penetrating oil to use is 50% acetone / 50% ATF.  Better than the store bought products.  If you can get a torch in there without destroying anything, heating the bolts up as well will loosen the rust's grip.  Don't try to twist the bolt & nut apart, rather attempt to move them gradually apart by progressively tightening and loosening them.  This will put less stress on the bolt and it is less likely to shear. It's hard to say whether the rust has penetrated between the two plates, forming a bond that may destroy the heating element if you try and separate the plates.  If you get the bolts off and the plate out, maybe its a better idea to leave things as they are if you find that separating the plates is impossible.  You should have a Plan B to replace the heating pad should the worse happen.  There are silicon rubber coated heating pads available through The 'Bay that may be a good substitute if you destroy the heater.  When reassembling the parts, install new hardware and use plenty of copper anti-seize paste on the threads to prevent this in the future.  Same paste should be applied between the plates if rust has tended to form there.

As for cleaning the motor, again pictures would help.  My Google search brought up the following image:

brenray-watch-cleaning-machine_360_2a88f

Is this the motor that is in your machine?  If so, it should be a straight forward job to disassemble the motor to clean it.  You'll want to check the state of the brushes and commutator to make sure they are not worn.  Replace the brushes if they are nearly worn out.

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Thanks for the post, Rob. This is the machine - partly disassembled:

IMG_0671.thumb.JPG.5fef78bb7f74d530840d50a1d6579207.JPG

This is the motor. I've cleaned the exterior with some alcohol wipes, but the inside is pretty cruddy:

IMG_0672.thumb.JPG.600b5a1c38ec4991a993a1c91dd45edc.JPG

This is the heating plate I mentioned, along with the control panel, which I'm going to clean, rewire, and repair the broken light:IMG_0675.thumb.JPG.afad359476a0a2f0a46d6c10f578e047.JPG

And finally, this is what it looks like with the paint stripped off:

IMG_0676.thumb.JPG.c2f401b0a98a3e6b63530795bb5180e8.JPG

I hope to get time to paint it tomorrow. After that, I'll turn my attention to getting the motor cleaned up - if I can work out how - then address the control panel issues!

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The motor looks to be in OK shape.  If it's dirty inside, you might try blasting with compressed air to get the loose brush material out.  I'd inspect the brushes and replace them if they look worn.  There are two slotted screw caps on opposite sides of the armature.  You unscrew those caps and the brushes and springs will come out.  I wouldn't bother with trying to disassemble the motor to clean it if the motor works fine.

As for the heater, I'd brush off the loose rust on the plates and use a stabilizer to stop any remaining rust from progressing more. The stabilizer is probably available at a place like Axeminister, and is used to prevent rust on machine tables. It looks like the heater is a bare nichrome wire and I think it would be very fragile. If you try to separate the plate, I fear it could break the heater wire and then you're in for a bit of work finding a replacement.  If the heater works now without problems, then like the motor leave well enough alone.  I certainly would repair the crimps that connect the heater wire to the front panel.  That blue electrical wire's insulation looks very old and brittle.  I would not recommend soldering, rather use metal crimps to clamp the wires together.  It is less likely to have broken connections that way.

Good luck on the refurbishment.

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Thanks Rob. I'm going to leave the motor alone. I popped out the brushes, and to my inexpert eye they look fine - shiny metal with a flat end surface with crisp edges, which I'm taking to mean there isn't much wear. I'll take a photo when I get the chance.

All of the wiring on the control panel is pretty old and brittle, so I'm probably going to replace it. The same goes for the power cable. If I'm resoldering connections, I might as well replace the whole lot! I think the rheostat is ok, but maybe needs to be cleaned up a bit? The bulb is bust, so I'm considering replacing that with an LED. I'm not quite sure what the spring going across the two contacts there is - a resistor? But that looks like it might be better replaced with something more up to date!

Finally, the wiring attached to the heating plate is pretty awful, so I'm thinking of replacing it with a spare for an Elma RM 90 machine. I'm hoping that will slot in ok! If not, I'll have to do the best I can with the old one, but the wiring on it will need to be replaced. I'll crimp it to the wires on the control panel as you suggest, whichever route I go with.

My knowledge of electronics is basic at best, so I'm hoping everything will have the appropriate amount of power getting to it!

IMG_2751.JPG

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Based on the photo you posted, here is what I think is the schematic diagram for the wiring:

https://goo.gl/photos/AYv4okiS3kvzL8XW6

Please double check my drawing against the actual wiring before taking this as gospel.  I am working from a single photo and don't have the machine in front of me to validate my work.

If it were my machine, I would not touch the solid wiring interconnecting the switches and rheostat.  I'd reshape that coiled resistor to make it even and floating between the two terminals, making sure it doesn't touch anything.  The reason that coiled resistor is there is because there is a small amount of voltage dropped across it when the current is applied to the heater, and that resistor ensures the correct amount of voltage appears across the bulb.  It also ensures that the heater continues to operate should the bulb burn out.  You can't replace the bulb with a LED because it will be destroyed when you turn on the power.  Find a vintage looking pilot light to replace the original one.  They are very readily available for low price.  Measure the voltage across the coil with the bulb removed.  That will tell you the voltage of pilot light you need to buy.

An alternative to buying a new light is to remanufacture the original lens.  See this Youtube video for inspiration:

The shininess or crispness of the brushes is not important, their length is important.  If they are too short, the motor will not run properly because they won't be contacting the commutator properly.  Also, don't clean the rheostat.  It also uses a carbon wiper and you may damage the wire windings if you aren't careful. Just use an electronic spray cleaner, like Deoxit, to clean the surface of the windings.

Like I mentioned, replace the stranded wires connecting the heating pad to the panel using good PVC or Teflon insulated wire of the correct gauge.  You can solder it onto the connectors on the panel but only crimp it to the heater wires (because of the aforementioned breakage that could occur).

Good luck.  It's going to be a nice looking machine when you're done.

Edited by robmack
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Thanks again Rob. I've taken some photos of the brushes. I don't know how long they need to be, but they are spring loaded and seem to be in contact with the motor. Hopefully you'll be able to see from the photos if this is the cast and they are ok. It was hard to get a good shot. It'll also give an indication of the dirt inside the motor housing.

IMG_2754.thumb.JPG.36c9f6059428e276a42f6b236db71421.JPG

Other images to follow... I'm having an upload issue!

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The photo size will most likely be the problem. Try cropping it. I can't remember which way round it is but I think I can only post portrait pics from my phone not landscape.

Those brushes look fine. You can clean the commutator ring that the brushes run against with isopropyl alcohol or meths. If it is heavily scored or at all corroded then rub lightly with 1000 grade wet and dry paper wrapped around a piece of wood, although only remove what you need to make the brushes run smoothly around it.  Brush between the contacts with a soft toothbrush to clear away any debris.

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Great, that's good to know. I was worried they might be tough to replace! I was planning on getting some electronic contact cleaner to spray on the rheostat. Is it ok to spray some of that into the motor? There's a bit of a track on the copper of the motor where the brushes contact with it.

I picked up all the wire today so will be able to start rewiring over the weekend. The on/off switches for the motor and heater are both marked as 3 amps. I got 6 amp max capacity wire so hopefully that will work ok! Will hopefully find a work around to get pictures up as the restoration progresses. Sticking to the original colour of black, with a hammered texture. Not too exciting, but the metal isn't smooth, so a smooth paint and clear coat won't look as good, I don't think!

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It's ok to spray the contact cleaner into the motor to try and clean the commutator.  The black tracking is desirable so don't worry about it being there.  If you use equal or larger gauge wire than what was originally supplied, then you should be OK.  You can calculate the current roughly by using Ohms power law (P=IV).  From this, I = P/V.  Add up the power of the heater in Watts and the motor in Watts (or VA) and divide that sum by 230. The answer will be the current in Amperes.  If it is less than 6, you're good.  If the motor is only rated in horsepower, then to find out Watts, multiply the HP rating by 760.

Edited by robmack
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Repainting has commenced, will hopefully be able to post photos when I'm done with that part.

There's no indication of watts or hp on the motor, and the heating plate is so rusted I can't see anything to indicate what current it draws. However, the switches are both marked 3 amp, so I'm going to take it that 3 amps is the max current they can allow through to either the heating plate and motor. I'm hoping that's a safe assumption! 

I'm posting one of promised brush photos to see if I can make it work this time... Seems to work when turned to landscape, but not portrait orientation... Odd!

One question on the bushes - the contact ends are slightly concave - were they likely designed this way, or is that from wear? If so, is it worth turning them through 90 degrees to even the wear?

Need to source a new bulb and cover now. The old fitting is cross-threaded in, so I'm having a tough time getting it out. Plus all my tools are metric, and everything on this is imperial!

Thanks again to everyone who's commented - it's really been a great help!

34453713572_73964bbaf9_o.thumb.jpg.98d3c772a3d6d426493eaa8b9161d332.jpg

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