Here I go again, movement ID help please

[transporter]

Ok guys, just finished cleaning stripping etc (the watch not me) anyway after spending far too long trying to reform the balance spring it only runs for a couple of seconds dial side down.

its a cylinder escapement and as of yet I haven't had the pleasure of setting one of these in beat as you would with a lebt type escapement, so I'm unsure of how to do so, will here's some pictures of the movement, if anyone can shed some light that would be great as I can then start looking for a new balance.

In the first photo attached to the mainspring barrel there is what is like a cross shape screwed to it, it spins round quite easily but I have no idea what it does as it doesn't seem to marry up to anything else.

well as you can see it has a cross shape with 646 next to it, and an ornate L with a bird on it, these are the only marks on the movement, I've again looked in all the usual places but again my places aren't coming up zither the goods yet again. Cheers guys

[oldhippy]

Here is a photo of what you have on the bottom of the barrel of your P/W I expect the part that fits onto the arbor is missing or it has been taken off as the little finger part can snap. It is a stop so that the spring can't unhook from the spring it also acts so the mainspring cannot be wound more then it needs.

Putting it in beat the best way is to move the collet round until the balance starts to move and starts escaping on its own, try to stop the balance and if you cant that should do it, you can also tell by the sound it makes it should sound even. I don't know the I D I'll have a look tomorrow. Seeking any replacement parts will be very hard. Are you sure the pivot holes are good as I see with this movement its not jeweled, pivots good too no wear and all smooth. 

[oldhippy]

Here is the photo.

[transporter]

Old hippy many thanks for the enlightenment of what that part does (or is supposed to do). As for setting in beat I didn't know if there was a specific way, as with lever escapement where to start of with you set the impulse jewel as near as dammit in the centre of the banking pins, obviously without banking pins this cylinder movement has another way.

I will admit that the hairspring looks better than it does in that picture but to be honest it still needs alot of work but atleast now it sits almost totally flat.

And that leads onto another question, the length of the hair spring? I have no idea how long it should be as there was a tail over a CM long after the pin, so some one before me has obviously been at this movement before.

[oldhippy]

Its very common to find these watches with extremely long tails after pinning. The only thing I can think of as to why this seems to be so is the balance is not compensated and its not unusual for them to be poor time keepers. Is there a little dot under the balance to give you a clue where it should be. No mark on the balance then it is pot luck where to pin it. I would start about here.

   

Edited April 20, 2017 by oldhippy

[transporter]

old hippy, thanks again, I have to say i had a quick look around at breakfast this morning and came across a piece in the nawcc forum on cylinder escapements, in a thread there it was said that the balance wheel may have 3 small circles on the under side and a corresponding dot on the movement plate, these would be a 5 degrees measurement for getting the cylinder etc "in beat"

I have another photo of the plate with the balance removed that shows a dot, I will try to post another photo of said part to see if it the dot that I need.

Any luck with the maker?

[oldhippy]

Try this site.

http://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php/280/letter_A

[WatchMaker]

As oldhippy says, Mikrolisk is a good resource for markings. I had a good look for you on this site last night.

I searched for 'vogel' (bird) ... no luck with your marking. Your bird looks like it's on a stylised 'L' so I looked through L markings but again no luck.

Let me know if you do any better!

[transporter]

Yes i too have had a look through that site and the Swiss makers marks but have not come up with anything yet, I'm struggling to upload another photo, seems I keep getting an error message

[transporter]

oldhippy, that bit on the barrel ive just found out is called a Geneva stop work, just read up about it, at first seems a little complicated to set up but not too bad. I'm sure you new all this already though.

[StuartBaker104]

Transporter - if you pm me with an email address I will send you some info about cylinder escapements.

Stuart

[oldhippy]

10 hours ago, transporter said:

oldhippy, that bit on the barrel ive just found out is called a Geneva stop work, just read up about it, at first seems a little complicated to set up but not too bad. I'm sure you new all this already though.

I couldn't remember what it was called. Thanks for reminding me. This type of stop work can be found in many French Carriage Clocks.

[transporter]

Ok guys, many thanks to Stuart for some good information, but im still slightly struggling to work out the balance on this movement, in particular where the cylinder sits when at rest when there is no  power in the train ( pallet escapement impulse jewel sits between banking pins ). How does the cylinder sit, between to teeth,  or wit a tooth fully inserted in the cylinder or with one resting on the outside of the cylinder ready to send an impulse onto and into the cylinder thus starting the movement in motion.

I now know that the pin sticking out of the balance wheel stops it doing a full rotation by hitting the banking pin that sits on the balance cock.

Ive read from the information that Stuart gave me that you rotate the balance wheel all the way round to the banking pin in one direction allowing the cylinder to engage with the escape wheel, thats ok but hw does the balance whee sit at rest.

Hopefully from that point I should be able to grasp setting up and getting a cylinder escapement to work, any info greatly recieved especially pictures

[StuartBaker104]

Info on setting in beat can be found here:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iClWAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

If things haven't been messed about with, if you remove the escape wheel and just fit the balance, you would normally find that when the escapement is set in beat the pin on the outside of the balance wheel will sit on the extended centre line which runs through the balance jewel and the escape wheel jewel.

You've hopefully worked this out already, but always make sure you have released the power from the mainspring before removing the balance!

Pictures here

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/blogcylinder.php

[oldhippy]

A tooth from the escape wheel should be central to the cut out of the cylinder. So when power is added the escape wheel will push against the inside of the cylinder and start its rotation, this is why the cylinder shouldn't have any wear what so ever outside and inside and even on the edge of the cutaway. 

[transporter]

Guys huge thanks, the lining up of the pin on the balance through the jewel line is the one bit of info that I needed, only because I've had to remove the balance from the cock to sort the hairspring and of course being old the end cm snapped off, a tad rusty there, I know rust has no place on a hairspring and there's not really any on it so no real dramas and as this is just a time killer so to speak, and more of a learning experience on cylinder escapements.

So we will see how I get on over the next few days with re pinning and lining up the balance fingers crossed, and huge thanks for the help again guys

[transporter]

Concentration, joy, wanted perfection, noisy neighbour, SNAPPED HAIRSPRING!

well guys good news tainted with a show stopper, having spent a good bit of time on this I think unless I can find another hairspring admit defeat.

I followed all the information given to me, and even got a half decent over coil in the bit of the hairspring so it flowed into the pin and also fell naturally into the end hole on the cock, lined up the balance wheel inline with the line between the jewels ( had to move the collet 3 times to get it where I wanted) had a really nice vibration of the hairspring so decided to install the escape wheel, I then wound the mainspring and she burst into life ticking away nicely.

I'll be honest I wasn't to bothered about putting it on the timegrapher, but on inspection I noticed the hairspring was cocked to one side, so I had to remove the collet again ( now my delightful neighbours decided to once again have their tv on through the surround sound) now having thoughts about being a door kicker and taking a sledge hammer to their system I wasn't 100% in the zone for hairspring work.

It snapped at the collet, so I thought I'd bend the end ready to re install it, it snapped again, I think it had more corrosion than originally thought. I too was distracted which didn't help. But atleast I got my first cylinder escapement to run, albeit only for a few minutes, but it ran.

So now I'm wondering would it be possible to get another hairspring?.?

[StuartBaker104]

Look for another movement the same. Search ebay for pocket watch movement. This one came up in the first few results (item 282444404174), but you may find a better one.

[transporter]

I am mate, my watch list is getting bigger and messages are being sent, but just in case anyone has a similar one that's for sale here are the dimensions of mine.

Balance wheel diameter 12.50mm

Hairspring diameter 6.50mm ( this after the disaster etc )

Collet outside diameter 1.96mm

Collet inside diameter 1.01mm ( I actually measured the diameter of the cylinder where the he collet is fitted )

Well you never know one might turn up either here or there here,  im now almost into my 4th year in the search for actually glycine dial, hope I find these bits quicker haha