Lemania 3000 gaining 2 hours on a period for 12 hour

[arkobugg]

Cheers mates!!

Have just put togheter a Lemania 3000 – Hand wound, small seconds. And see that it gain 2 hour on a period on 12 hour.

This looks like some canon pinion problem to me or??

Only probleme with this is that I did not take apart the canon pinion and the center wheel, I thought I just let i be in the movment when I cleaned it.

I usually let the parts spinn in white spirit for ten minutes (turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha (petroleum)

Then I spinn for 10 minutes in methylated spirit

Then I finish with a 1 minut spinn in isopropyl alcohol

After that I did lubricate on all the places needed to be exept the canon pinion...

I hva looked at the balance spring, and it seems okay, its difficult to say.

How to regulate this also?  What is  A and what is R on the balance wheel bridge?
 

Pls help me when I still have some hair on my head !!!!

[StuartBaker104]

That's a beautiful movement with some really interesting features, see more here http://watchguy.co.uk/guest-post-lemania-273000-the-moon-watch-caliber-321s-lesser-known-cousins/

If the watch is gaining time, then the problem will not be with the canon pinion, it is more likely to be an issue with the hairspring / balance. That "anti-catch" feature on the regulator is pretty unusual. You will need good magnification to see all this (x10 minimum), but make sure that the hairspring only touches between the regulator pins and doesn't touch the balance, anti-catch pins or itself anywhere else.

I assume that the watch kept approximate time before you started? Sometimes we see watches with an incorrect part fitted which can cause large errors.

"A" = Avance; move the lever this way to make the watch go faster

"R" = Retard; move the lever this way to make the watch go slower.

Sometimes you see F & S also, but the important thing to remember is that if you make the effective spring length longer then the watch will run slower. However, you will not have enough adjustment on the regulator to take out 2 hours in 12 hours

 

[arkobugg]

Hello Stuart Baker, 

Thanks a lot, I will check the balance spring, I have a long arm microscope. I will let you know what I find. Good sunday to you

 

Best Regards

Armand Ekvold

[StuartBaker104]

Good luck - a microscope would be ideal.  While you are looking, make sure that balance cap jewel spring is hooked in on both sides. One side looks a little odd.

S

[rogart63]

Nice looking movements those Lemania 3000 . But the hairsprings are difficult to get right?

Brequet overcoil  type  hairsprings are almost impossible to get perfect? 

Check the beat error? 

[arkobugg]

4 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

Good luck - a microscope would be ideal.  While you are looking, make sure that balance cap jewel spring is hooked in on both sides. One side looks a little odd.

S

It worked great!!!    After struggling for one hour with the balance spring, I finally manage to sort them all out. And after a tiny regulation. The watch is going on the second, and have done for many hours.   Thanks a lot for you kind word....

This web site rules!!!! 

[arkobugg]

1 hour ago, rogart63 said:

Nice looking movements those Lemania 3000 . But the hairsprings are difficult to get right?

Brequet overcoil  type  hairsprings are almost impossible to get perfect? 

Check the beat error? 

Yes Roger....this was a pain, but I manage to get et right in the end....Im so pleased....thanks a lot

[arkobugg]

On 2.4.2017 at 2:19 PM, StuartBaker104 said:

Good luck - a microscope would be ideal.  While you are looking, make sure that balance cap jewel spring is hooked in on both sides. One side looks a little odd.

S

Hello again!!

Like I said earlier, I thought I had fixed it, but after running good for 48 hours, I just found out that it had gained 30 minutes out of the blue. And then when I opened it, I could see that the spring was together in one place. After I have had them apart I got this on the nice timeprapher display…..

So Im asking, Is there anything I can do to prevent this for happening again??

[arkobugg]

1 minute ago, arkobugg said:

Hello again!!

Like I said earlier, I thought I had fixed it, but after running good for 48 hours, I just found out that it had gained 30 minutes out of the blue. And then when I opened it, I could see that the spring was together in one place. After I have had them apart I got this on the nice timeprapher display…..

So Im asking, Is there anything I can do to prevent this for happening again??

 

[StuartBaker104]

Usually this would indicate that either the hairspring is magnetized or has oil or some other contaminant that causes the coils to stick together.

Solution would either be to demagnetize or clean, or maybe both. I use Renata Essence, but hairspring degreasing fluid can't be shipped by air, so if you don't have any you will need to find a local source. Naptha or lighter fuel followed by isopropyl alcohol might be your best alternative if you can't find any. Demagnetizers can be had from the usual sources... pay your money and take your pick from a few £'s upwards.

[StuartBaker104]

While you're at it, you could tweak that beat error a little. I believe Mark has a video on doing this.

[arkobugg]

16 minutes ago, StuartBaker104 said:

Usually this would indicate that either the hairspring is magnetized or has oil or some other contaminant that causes the coils to stick together.

Solution would either be to demagnetize or clean, or maybe both. I use Renata Essence, but hairspring degreasing fluid can't be shipped by air, so if you don't have any you will need to find a local source. Naptha or lighter fuel followed by isopropyl alcohol might be your best alternative if you can't find any. Demagnetizers can be had from the usual sources... pay your money and take your pick from a few £'s upwards.

I have lighter fuel and isopropyl alcohol. Does  it matter if the watch is running while demagnetize, or should be stand still? Bought me one of this, haven used this so mutch. Be I mean that I put the watch on the plate, push the button, hold it onto for some seconds, and take it from the plate while I held the botton in. Isnt that right??

[StuartBaker104]

Not familiar with that particular tool, but that's the usual process. You may need to repeat a few times.

S

[arkobugg]

On 2.4.2017 at 4:36 PM, rogart63 said:

Nice looking movements those Lemania 3000 . But the hairsprings are difficult to get right?

Brequet overcoil  type  hairsprings are almost impossible to get perfect? 

Check the beat error? 

Hello Roger, had to change the balance spring on the Lemania 3000. Got so badley tangled when I was cleaning it in isopropanol.

So I have changes it into the balance bridge, but when I tried it after it runs like -967 sek/d late. So I try to regulate it, but it seems not have any affect when I move the regulator. Then I see the that the sort of holder for the balance( see photo with red markings) is not holding the sping very tight. How tight should this be?   How to tigthen it?

[rogart63]

That doesn't need to that tight. They are just there to hold the hairspring out so you can regulate the deviation . Have you adjusted the beat error? If not that has to be adjusted first. 

[arkobugg]

4 minutes ago, rogart63 said:

That doesn't need to that tight. They are just there to hold the hairspring out so you can regulate the deviation . Have you adjusted the beat error? If not that has to be adjusted first. 

When I changed the balance spring I aligned the spring towards the center of the pallet fork. Is that enough ? Eventally how to to this in a easy way?  ;-)

[arkobugg]

2 minutes ago, arkobugg said:

When I changed the balance spring I aligned the spring towards the center of the pallet fork. Is that enough ? Eventally how to to this in a easy way?  ;-)

Another thing...if this doesn't need to be tight , how do you shorten the spring for faster speed?

[StuartBaker104]

The gap between the regulator pins should normally be just greater than the thickness of the hairspring, but I doubt this is your problem here.

When you say you changed the hairspring, where did you get the new one from? Did it come from another old balance or from a new balance? Either way the hairspring will need to be matched to the balance wheel, and with an overcoil spring that is somewhat harder than with a flat spring.  I doubt you will have enough adjustment on the regulator to correct the error you have. Your timegrapher will likely only record up to 999 sec/day error, so you may be worse than that, but you will need to adjust the pinning point to shorten the spring. This will also likely mean the overcoil is in the wrong place, which is an advanced problem to fix. Do you have the balance that matches your new hairspring?

 

 

[arkobugg]

11 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

The gap between the regulator pins should normally be just greater than the thickness of the hairspring, but I doubt this is your problem here.

When you say you changed the hairspring, where did you get the new one from? Did it come from another old balance or from a new balance? Either way the hairspring will need to be matched to the balance wheel, and with an overcoil spring that is somewhat harder than with a flat spring.  I doubt you will have enough adjustment on the regulator to correct the error you have. Your timegrapher will likely only record up to 999 sec/day error, so you may be worse than that, but you will need to adjust the pinning point to shorten the spring. This will also likely mean the overcoil is in the wrong place, which is an advanced problem to fix. Do you have the balance that matches your new hairspring?

 

 

Hello Stuart;

 

Thanks for helping, the photo is for illustration, its not mine movement. But the gap is pretty much the same.If we start with beginning, the watch did not go at all. So I took it apart and cleaned it like I always do:

1) I let the parts spin in white spirit for ten minutes (turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha (petroleum)

2) Then I spin for 10 minutes in methylated spirit

3) Then I finish with a 1 minute spin in isopropyl alcohol

What you think of this cleaning method?

Put it together and saw that is was very fast, saw also that the balance spring was sticky, so I demagnetized, and tried, but the same. Then I took and cleaned once more in isopropyl alcohol. And while it was drying, I pushed it out on the floor, and it was all tangled up. Shame on me, but thats life...

While I was working with this I also saw that the beat error was like 3,1 ms.

So I got hold of a spring from this company http://www.urdelar.se I don't remember what it said on the web site, this was the only one they had, and the photon taken away from the web site. But this spring is coming from another balance wheel.

I thought as well I could use only the spring, because. I had to set the bear error right as well, by setting the spring on the staff aligned with the pallet fork center.

So I did, put up balance wheel onto the bearing, made two marks on the balance wheel, and one for the pinning point. Mounted the spring, and mounted in to the watch...

And here we are...