Roller adjusting tweezers.Bergeon 4852

[clockboy]

Some movements have no beat adjustment arm so what I do is move the hairspring collet to achieve  beat. However this has some dangers involved & yesterday I slipped and clobbered a hairspring. The hairspring was repaired but I thought maybe it would be better & safer to just move the roller jewel table. However I could not get it to move it with pliers or tweezers.

I found this item and was wondering if any of you guys have one and are they any good. Bergeon 4852.

[Geo]

They must be good CB, they've got Bergeon stamped on them.

 

[SSTEEL]

And a price to match too no doubt.  Search around CB for bead tools, you will find similar tools.

[matabog]

I know the collet is made out of a very soft metal (I think it's Berilium). And you can rotate it quite easy.

Are you sure you can rotate the roller table which is also friction fit but appears oInsert other media be much tighter.

Edited February 9, 2017 by matabog

[clockboy]

I presumed that the roller table can be moved as is just fiction fit. Maybe i am wrong

[matabog]

I have no doubt it can be rotated, I just don't know how much force does it take

[rogart63]

You should need a Bergeon 30017 collet tool?  Safer to  move the collet that way. You can do them yourself if you like? As with everything Bergeon they ain't cheap  

[oldhippy]

I always moved the hairspring collet with a screwdriver with a tiny blade. Nearly £50,  Bergeon have the answer to everything to make sure you part with your cash. Its the Bergeon way.

[JohnR725]

I suppose a clarification is needed what sort a roller tables are we discussing here? I spent a lot of time working on American pocket watches so I'm going to answer from that point of view versus a modern Swiss roller table as it's a little bit different and it probably can be safely rotated but there's a minor technical issue.

American pocket watch roller tables are normally made out of steel occasionally brass or something similar to that. they friction on very tight. If they have a safety roller it's usually a separate roller. So both of them would have to be rotated to be in alignment. There's a danger of rotating these they might actually pop off depending upon how far you rotated or how many times to get things where it's supposed to be.

So the technical problem is you will screw up the poise of the balance wheel. The balance wheel is always poised with the roller in place rotating it changes the poise of the balance wheel. Although it probably depends upon how obsessed you are with positional errors the size of the roller table etc.

then this tool mentioned above Bergeon 3007 Swiss Tool for Collet Closing, is for tightening loose hairspring collets. for variety of known and unknown reasons hairspring collets can be loose with time. You go to rotate them and they just aren't tight enough to stay in place. So with this tool it's relatively safe to tighten the collet without bad things happening to the hairspring. At least most of the time sometimes you can still catch the hairspring where it shouldn't be and then you'll have to put it in the flat. usually the worst thing that happens to hairspring collet's is in restaffing is the size of the staff is somehow different than the original. Sometimes people try to force it on the collet can actually crack. then a course with all their watches they been re-staffed several times and things just happen.

then at least at one time they made tools for rotating hairspring collet's. Somewhere around here I have photographs conveniently I'm not finding them if I find them I will attached later. The difference between them in a screwdriver is the taper is much longer. Whatever you put into the crack of a collet isn't supposed to open the collet when you rotate. Just the twisting action alone will open the collet a very tiny bit you shouldn't have to wage something in do it. There's a danger with screwdrivers because of the taper of opening the collet up too much and ending up with a loose collet.

 

[praezis]

Caution: If you rotate the roller and hold the balance wheel, you may rotate the rivetted staff instead!

Frank

[Geo]

Eloquently put as usual JohnR, and also good advice from Praezis.  Thank you guys.

[clockboy]

The roller table I was trying to rotate was on a cheap pin lever movement. However it would not budge even with pliers and as Frank says if forced it could actually move the balance staff. Therefore I think I will give this tool a miss. I am now looking at making a better collet mover by shaping the end of with a thick pin & controlling the pin with a pin vice.   

[rodabod]

Does it not affect the poise of the balance complete if you rotate the roller?

[clockboy]

Good point probably yes

[praezis]

On 10.2.2017 at 0:37 PM, rodabod said:

Does it not affect the poise of the balance complete if you rotate the roller?

Hi,

completely - not at all. A tiny tiny bit - yes. 

Once I calculated, if the gap for the safety pin will compensate the weight of the jewel. Result was, it does just partly, about 1/3 if I remember well. But the effect is very little.

Frank

[rodabod]

On 2/14/2017 at 5:30 PM, praezis said:

Hi,

completely - not at all. A tiny tiny bit - yes. 

Once I calculated, if the gap for the safety pin will compensate the weight of the jewel. Result was, it does just partly, about 1/3 if I remember well. But the effect is very little.

Frank

I guess you would need to make positional rate measurements before and after to find out how much.