Face Up vs Face Down at my Breitling

[uzii]

Hello everybody,

My Breitling Chrono avenger suddenly start loosing ~10sec a day while once before it was ~+5sec a day. I've put him on the timing machine and I see that at face-up, it is running -10sec while at face down its -2sec. both measurements are quite consistent.

my question is does 8sec deviation between face up and face down consider as normal? (and there is also amplitude difference of ~14deg)...

thx, uzi.

[david]

Uzii,

Aside from the normal cleaning etc. check to see if the cone of the staff is binding on the jewel. Also check the ends of the pivots for the proper burnishing and geometry.

david

[jdm]

Before going to service (it was not mentioned  how long ago that was done, ifbecause the  ever) the mov.t I would consider just regulating it. That  because the pattern is regular as well the amplitude.

[clockboy]

It might be worth just removing the balance clean with a de-greaser such as "one dip" then re-lube the cap jewels. If you don,t want to give it a full service that is. 

[uzii]

Hi friends,

Thank you for the advise. I bought this watch second hand so I don't really know when it was serviced. 

I'll first try to regulate and see the response. Cleaning and re-lubing the balance jewels requires dial removal right? so I wouldn't like to go there at the moment.

anyhow, can I conclude that such a difference is not considered as normal, right?

I'll check and update.

thank you all, uzi.

[jdm]

23 minutes ago, uzii said:

I'll first try to regulate and see the response. Cleaning and re-lubing the balance jewels requires dial removal right? so I wouldn't like to go there at the moment.

anyhow, can I conclude that such a difference is not considered as normal, right?

I recommend that in no case  you try to work on this valuable watch yourself. The positional variance is not ideal but not large either.

[clockboy]

2 hours ago, uzii said:

Hi friends,

Thank you for the advise. I bought this watch second hand so I don't really know when it was serviced. 

I'll first try to regulate and see the response. Cleaning and re-lubing the balance jewels requires dial removal right? so I wouldn't like to go there at the moment.

anyhow, can I conclude that such a difference is not considered as normal, right?

I'll check and update.

thank you all, uzi.

The dial does not need to be removed just to remove the balance. Regulation will not solve the variances between DU & DD positions. 

[jdm]

50 minutes ago, clockboy said:

The dial does not need to be removed just to remove the balance. 

If the dial is not removed there is no access to the lower jewel and the work is not complete. And without taking the mov.t fully apart, servicing would not be complete anyway.

[clockboy]

15 hours ago, clockboy said:

The dial does not need to be removed just to remove the balance. Regulation will not solve the variances between DU & DD positions. 

Sorry guys I was not thinking straight. JDM is correct the dial does have to be removed. 

However the main point I wish to make is, regulating is not going to resolve this issue. I suspect it is just the balance needs cleaning & re-lubeing but if  uzi does not want to remove the dial then it is best left alone or passed onto a watch repairer. 

[uzii]

Hi all,

thank you very much for your answers.

I agree that current performance is not justifying dial removal. I thought maybe to clean / re lube only the upper balance jewel (which actually is the basis for the balance while running DU). Does it make sense?

anyhow, I do not plan to take it to watch repairer, I'm the one to do it if it's getting worse...

thx, uzi.

[jdm]

7 hours ago, uzii said:

I agree that current performance is not justifying dial removal. I thought maybe to clean / re lube only the upper balance jewel (which actually is the basis for the balance while running DU). Does it make sense?

Yes the balance pivot stands on the upper jewel when DU but the Swiss lever escape is a delicate mechanism with a lot of  intervening factors, so you have no guarantee whatsoever on the results of partial job, and in fact not even of these of a complete one.

Since the timekeeping on the wrist is still good, I recommend leaving this piece undisturbed for the time being.

[uzii]

jdm, taking your advise with two hands, thx!

[tmac1956]

On 1/16/2017 at 8:38 AM, jdm said:

I recommend that in no case  you try to work on this valuable watch yourself. The positional variance is not ideal but not large either.

 

Honestly... this guy owns the watch so there isn't an ethical problem with his trying to repair the watch for a customer. While we might suggest that he buy cheap practice watches to learn on,  it is his decision and his property. My point is that no one will learn to work on a watch without breaking some movements and if he wants to do it with this piece, then no one should advise him to the contrary. It might be an expensive lesson, but it might also be a very educational one. I say he should attack it , but be prepared to wreck the movement. I've lost count of how many mistakes I've made and how many movements I've destroyed. We all know it's inevitable in the learning process.

[jdm]

. My point is that no one will learn to work on a watch without breaking some movements and if he wants to do it with this piece, then no one should advise him to the contrary.

For one, his watch is not broken. And then I will gladly continue to advise begineers again working on expensive pieces no matter who owns them. Call it good old common sense which seems to have been well received in this case.

[tmac1956]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

1 hour ago, tmac1956 said:

. My point is that no one will learn to work on a watch without breaking some movements and if he wants to do it with this piece, then no one should advise him to the contrary.

For one, his watch is not broken. And then I will gladly continue to advise begineers again working on expensive pieces no matter who owns them. Call it good old common sense which seems to have been well received in this case.

 

You mean you will continue to advise beginners not to work on watches so that they never get any better at the craft. You call it good 'ol common sense, but I call it an unwillingness to share information with beginners. Ironically, this is utterly contrary to the whole point of this site and its creator. I see this arrogance on most of these sites. 
 

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, tmac1956 said:

You mean you will continue to advise beginners not to work on watches so that they never get any better at the craft. You call it good 'ol common sense, but I call it an unwillingness to share information with beginners. Ironically, this is utterly contrary to the whole point of this site and its creator. I see this arrogance on most of these sites. 

I think you haven't read what i wrote, which is advising beginner against working on expensive pieces, from there your hurried and uncalled for judgement on my intentions. Have a look to my posting history to see myself sharing the little knowledge that I posses; I look forward to see your.

[david]

I still say it is probably a binding issue between the pivot cone and the jewel. A difference in friction will cause a difference in timing. That is the whole reason for testing the timing in different positions. Until this is looked at it cannot be ruled out. 

david

[clockboy]

3 hours ago, tmac1956 said:

You mean you will continue to advise beginners not to work on watches so that they never get any better at the craft. You call it good 'ol common sense, but I call it an unwillingness to share information with beginners. Ironically, this is utterly contrary to the whole point of this site and its creator. I see this arrogance on most of these sites. 
 

JDM is just giving good sensible advice. The best way to learn is by practice for sure but if the repairer is not comfortable in removing a dial then leave alone until more competent & confident.

[uzii]

Hello everyone,

As I see the discussion was somehow de-focus, I’d like 1^st to thank everyone for sharing the advises and the knowledge. Now, let me share with you few things about me and the way I see it.

I’m a watch/clock hobbyist and definitely not a watch repairer so I’m not going to argue with anyone, I’m just asking questions, bringing my thoughts and trying to gain as much knowledge and experience from the experts here.

As part of my hobby I did few “things” in this area such as full service of my Omega cal620 and my Atmos clock repair & service (posted in this lovely forum).

One of the main growing engine for me in whole life is the curiosity and the fact that I’m not afraid to pay price in case something get wrong. (I heard many times in my life things like “leave it – you won’t be able to fix it…” and this is exactly what gives me the motivation J)

Having this in mind, I do everything by myself starting from big mechanics such as car fixing through home appliance fixing all the way to clock / watch repairing.

One can see that also here I’m not afraid diving into this but still I think that it’s not came into the point it is justified. As watch beginner, one of my difficulties is putting back the hands, or to be more accurate the minutes hand. While the hour hand can go straight and set parallel to the dial, the minutes hand sometimes not sitting correctly in parallel to the hour hand/dial and I’m always afraid to bent it…

Well again thank you ALL!

[jdm]

21 minutes ago, uzii said:

As watch beginner, one of my difficulties is putting back the hands, or to be more accurate the minutes hand. While the hour hand can go straight and set parallel to the dial, the minutes hand sometimes not sitting correctly in parallel to the hour hand/dial and I’m always afraid to bent it…

This is how I do it. Hour hand to to 6, move back and forth a tiny bit to average "slack", press in minute hand at 12. It just helps me visually.

[uzii]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

This is how I do it. Hour hand to to 6, move back and forth a tiny bit to average "slack", press in minute hand at 12. It just helps me visually.

I wasn't talking about alignment of the hands to point directly on the makings each hour. My problem is how to push the minute hand in such a way that it will be parallel with the hour hand (if I look from the side, sometimes the edge of the minute hand goes up instead of keeping straight like the hour hand does)

[jdm]

46 minutes ago, uzii said:

My problem is how to push the minute hand in such a way that it will be parallel with the hour hand (if I look from the side, sometimes the edge of the minute hand goes up instead of keeping straight like the hour hand does)

That is called "hand stacking".

When you use an pen-like pusher, you do not have the best control, it's easy to place too much force, or place it not vertically, In that case you may use a press-type hand setter.

But since we know from your words that you have placed together less than an handful of wrist watches, I wouldn't worry about it, just keep practicing.

[david]

Uzii,

If you go to Ebay and punch in item number 351931298862, you will see a watch hand pressing device for less than $10.00.

david

[uzii]

thx jdm & David!