Waltham, is this repairable?

[jameswrx]

I took a chance on an estate auction lot the other night on a Waltham diver watch, was on the original strap etc so ended up paying (what I now know) too much for a broken watch!

When I picked the watch up yesterday it was rattling and immediately I though thewinder weight had come off.

Watch was dead and I was very annoyed having just paid out, but that's the joy of auctions!

Anyway, having the hump I listed it on eBay as spares or repair.

Since I have had a proper look..

Yep, the weight had come off.. great I thought hopefully one of the screws was just lodged somewhere. Under my loupe, sure enough there it was on the escape wheel stopping preceedings!

I refitted the weight and she went to go then stopped..

On other inspection the gear that's connected to the second hand is the issue.  The top spindle of the gear has snapped (assuming where someone has played with the winder with the jam) and the gear is able to move off centre and stop the movement!

Does anyone know if this can be fixed?  If that little gear can stay centred I'm sure she'll run!  Or is there any way to get parts?

See pics

The patient

The injury

With weight back

It does have its original strap still though, at least that's something haha.

[oldhippy]

You need the cal I D and number of the movement, I can see the I D down by the balance wheel its in a type of shield, when you have that the part you need is the center sweep seconds wheel, yours has a broken off top pivot. It will need to be take apart cleaned, oiled and reassembled and timed. 

[Marc]

Hi James, that is almost certainly repairable, it just depends on your level of skill, how much you like a challenge, and the sort of equipment you have.

You have 2 realistic options.

1. Identify the movement and find a replacement wheel.

2. re-pivot the existing wheel.

As it is a relatively modern movement the first option in this case is the easiest and most sensible to try. Check underneath the balance and you should see the makers mark and calibre number. Once you have that tracking down a replacement wheel or even a complete donor movement shouldn't be too hard unless it is something particularly exotic, but it looks like it might be an ST movement to me.

The second option would be rather more challenging. Have a look here for some inspirational ideas not only on how to re-pivot the damaged wheel, but also on how to make the equipment required.

To be honest though I think that you would have to be a glutton for punishment to re-pivot this one as I think you will find sourcing a replacement not too difficult.

[jameswrx]

Hi gents, thanks for the quick replies.

The only thing I could see on the movement was 908.  I didn't picture it because it is (obviously) tiny on the movement.

The same is on the case back..

[jameswrx]

Strange thing when I search the B134 is they all come back as 17 jewels, this is 25 jewels

[Marc]

In that case it is an FHF 908. Cousins has quite a lot of spares for FHF 908, alternatively try http://obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/

or eBay.

[oldhippy]

35 minutes ago, Marc said:

In that case it is an FHF 908. Cousins has quite a lot of spares for FHF 908, alternatively try http://obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/

or eBay.

 

Well done Marc with my eyesight I couldn't see the info, not even with my reading glasses on.

[Marc]

55 minutes ago, jameswrx said:

Strange thing when I search the B134 is they all come back as 17 jewels, this is 25 jewels

You'll find that quite a lot of watch movements were available in different grades with a variety of different jewel counts.

Check here for info on the FHF 908

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&FHF_908

As you will see it was available in both 17 and 25 jewel variants. I'm guessing that the extra 8 jewels were an upgrade to the auto wind module and as such contributed nothing what so ever to the time keeping of the watch. Although they would certainly have reduced wear in the auto wind operation, and may even have improved efficiency slightly, their main function would have been simply to increase the jewel count for marketing purposes. <This could of course just be my cynical point of view!!>

[jameswrx]

Thanks guys.

 

i did try cousins before but the only ref to 908 was a 16908 and the only part was a spring!

[vinn3]

be careful what you buy on line.   you are lucky if it becomes a parts watch.   in some cases  they are called "frankenstine watches"   but good for parts

[jameswrx]

Well I got the second wheel the other day and attempted the repair..

On relocating the bridge over the train wheels the third wheel didn't seem to be playing ball.  Under closer inspection that has a missing tip to its axle too!  I thought it was ok but there is a two stage axle coming up and the thinner part at the top is missing!

No problem, get a new one... ah, can't find one anywhere!

[jdm]

1 minute ago, jameswrx said:

Under closer inspection that has a missing tip to its axle too!

In horology, "axle", that is actually a shaft, or a pinion pressed into the wheel. "tip", that is a pivot.

[jameswrx]

Think I'm going to have to admit defeat on this one!

Bought and fitted a new third wheel, put her back together and she ran!!

Then stopped, started her again, and over and over.  The balance appeared to be the issue.  One the impulse jewel appeared too small to me and didn't really want to locate in the pivot fork properly. Two the balance spring wasn't sitting right.

I tried to straighten the spring... 

So I've bought a new balance complete lol and the jewel is notably more visible even with the naked eye so that needed addressing anyway!

But.. I really don't think I can fit the spring to the balance bridge (don't know if that's it's name). It looks to be glued into the holder on the bridge with some green looking varnish?  I did think about trying to heat that but I'm never going to align the balance spring properly to fall the impulse jewel in the centre of the escape fork.

So, I'm out! 

Thanks for the help to everyone that offered it.

[jameswrx]

Anyone know where I can get cap jewel retaining clips?

 

I managed to find a balance wheel and have successfully fitted it to the balance cock.

 

Ive recently got right into the servicing and have done a few movements successfully.  I stripped this 908 down and cleaned, oiled and assembled but the lower (one in the main plate) balance cap jewel clip was broken so I can't get her back together!

 

I've searched everywhere and I can't find them.

 

I've tried scrap movements but everything I have is too big

 

It looks like the only way I can get one is to buy a complete main plate? Which seems crazy.

[Marc]

I think what you're after is the lower Incabloc lyre or spring which for the FHF 908 is incabloc part number 975.03 (170.03 for the upper).

http://www.ofrei.com/page615.html

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/inca-shock-springs

 

[jameswrx]

I guess it's all about the terminology.  You're a star.  I was searching end stone clips, balance jewel clips etc.

 

One question though, those part no's don't mention my movement, have you cross referenced them?

 

Thanks.  It's so close now I can almost see that orange second hand sweeping

[Marc]

They are commonly used parts in (probably) hundreds of movements so the suppliers tend only to list the most common ones. If they tried to list all applications then their parts catalogues would be unusable.

If you check out Cousins download area though you will find the Incabloc catalogue sheets listed by movement maker. I have attached the relevant document with the appropriate line highlighted. The upper (dessus) and lower (dessous) springs are the far right columns.

1257_Incabloc By Factory - FHF.pdf

Enjoy

[jameswrx]

Thanks Marc, you're a gentleman.

Ordered this morning.

[jameswrx]

Might have to throw the towel on this one.

Got all the pieces I needed (thanks to Marc's kind help) but when fitting the train gears it would jam up as I tightened the bridge.

I wasn't happy with the finish to the top of the new centre second wheel so the other day I bought another new wheel and a new bridge (jewelled) just encase that wasn't right (plus the end stone for the seconds wheel looked a bit dodgy) the second pivot would stick in the jewel and had a poor manufactured finish IMO.

Ive just fitted the new parts and as soon as the bridge gets tightened the whole train just jams up

All the pivots are lined up properly, I've been very careful and never forced anything, With the bridge fitted and levered up a fraction of a mm if you move the barrel the gears spin but as soon as you tighten the bridge down the gears jam.  

Ive fitted all the train gears on their own with the bridge and it moves freely with each one separately just when all of them are in together it jams.  

Its getting to the stage of binning it.

Ive inspected all the jewels with my loupe, the teeth on the gears, pivots for true and damage.  It's really frustrating as I've managed to strip and rebuild dozens of other movements over the past few months and this one was the first I wanted to repair and it's still out of action!

 

[jameswrx]

Well, finally she lives!

Found a complete FHF908 movement (watch head), picked it up from the post office earlier.  Out the case and ready for stripping.

 

Stripped it down, cleaned everything and built back up around my original main plate. Used the centre wheel jewel from the donor movement (as this was one of my possibilities for the locking up) 

 

On the way back up

 

Everything free (see the escape wheel spinning)

 

Balance back in and she sprang to life, jewel out for cleaning.

Back in and oiled

Self winding back on

 

Dial and hands

 

And re-cased

 

Time set and on the wrist in the sunshine

Edited April 15, 2017 by jameswrx

[Marc]

Nice resurrection James. Your efforts paid off and that's another nice diver rescued from the scrap heap.

[jameswrx]

Thanks Marc, and thanks again for your help.

It really is something else seeing them run again.

[transporter]

**BLEEP** good effort mate, you're like me with these watches, you just want to get them ticking again, well done for not giving up, im 3 years now waiting for a dial to come up for sale on eBay etc for my ww2 glycine, 3 years!!!!!! Oh well the wait goes on

And we'll done to the other members for the font of knowledge that they share.

[jameswrx]

Thanks a lot.  She's been running well ever since.

I did get a bit down hearted for a while and I still don't really get why the old setup would lock up.  

3 years? Wow, hope you've set up auto searches for it?  I'm doing the same waiting for a blue longines ultronic dial for my Dad's watch.  He sent it over for me and he'd glued on one of the dial markers with super glue  and got it everywhere. He'd put a hammer through the crystal and knocked the raised marker off.  Really annoying as it was all perfect so I could have drilled it and staked it.  God knows why he even attempted it as he's blind as a bat.