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6 hours ago, jdrichard said:

So my timing machine is wrong?

So I'm having a confusion are we talking about the watch at the start of the thread or a new watch? Then to properly evaluate the video it would be nice to have a picture of the watch with no power to the balance wheel so we could see what the at rest position is.

So yes timing machines are not perfect and they can definitely be wrong. The timing machines rely upon picking up a good clean signal. This means they have to have good amplification and very good signal processing. Most the time they do an outstanding job. But things like low amplitude seems to be a problem more common with the Chinese occasionally pops up with the Swiss. So if the timing machine cannot get a proper signal it may still display a numeric result that is totally wrong. So extremely low amplitude manifests itself as having a numeric result that is much much higher than it should be.

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So I'm having a confusion are we talking about the watch at the start of the thread or a new watch? Then to properly evaluate the video it would be nice to have a picture of the watch with no power to the balance wheel so we could see what the at rest position is.

So yes timing machines are not perfect and they can definitely be wrong. The timing machines rely upon picking up a good clean signal. This means they have to have good amplification and very good signal processing. Most the time they do an outstanding job. But things like low amplitude seems to be a problem more common with the Chinese occasionally pops up with the Swiss. So if the timing machine cannot get a proper signal it may still display a numeric result that is totally wrong. So extremely low amplitude manifests itself as having a numeric result that is much much higher than it should be.


Confused yep. From Walthams the movement leaving the factory in new condition after quality inspection, would, as I was told by an enthusiast, be expected as regards the arc of the balance wheel arm be expected to reach 270 degrees. This was in the says of electronics or even airplanes!
Fine tuning of beat was after adjustments made, done by the regulators ear! Listening to the movement.
It's very unfair to compare normal present day watches to old vintage pieces of 100 years old or so.
Regards amplitude and timegrapher on these old pocket watch movements, it's more appropriate to set the lift angle to 40° than the preset 52° Which will I believe bring the amplitude down to a more accurate figure, if indeed, amplitude even concerns you on these lovely old movement's.
As for assessments made with a timegrapher on low amplitude movement's. The timegrapher still has its uses and I'm referring more to studying the dotted lines as the movement is placed in different positions. Though anything readings assessed with an amplitude of less than 180 should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Personally I'm more than happy with my old pocket watches if they still tick after being wound.
If the OPs balance wheel arm is rotating to 270 degrees . To me he almost certainly has a great watch in great condition.
The above is my humble opinion and as the saying goes " Opinions are like **BLEEP**holes, everybody has one."


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Confused yep. From Walthams the movement leaving the factory in new condition after quality inspection, would, as I was told by an enthusiast, be expected as regards the arc of the balance wheel arm be expected to reach 270 degrees. This was in the says of electronics or even airplanes!
Fine tuning of beat was after adjustments made, done by the regulators ear! Listening to the movement.
It's very unfair to compare normal present day watches to old vintage pieces of 100 years old or so.
Regards amplitude and timegrapher on these old pocket watch movements, it's more appropriate to set the lift angle to 40° than the preset 52° Which will I believe bring the amplitude down to a more accurate figure, if indeed, amplitude even concerns you on these lovely old movement's.
As for assessments made with a timegrapher on low amplitude movement's. The timegrapher still has its uses and I'm referring more to studying the dotted lines as the movement is placed in different positions. Though anything readings assessed with an amplitude of less than 180 should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Personally I'm more than happy with my old pocket watches if they still tick after being wound.
If the OPs balance wheel arm is rotating to 270 degrees . To me he almost certainly has a great watch in great condition.
The above is my humble opinion and as the saying goes " Opinions are like **BLEEP**holes, everybody has one."


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Very good and very through and I agree without argument. If the pocket watches I repair can have one arm rotate 270 degrees in one direction and the same amount in the other direction, then the power is smoothly getting to the escape wheel and transferred through the palate fork to the balance correctly. This wold indicate that the Wat have is running strong. The next step for me is fine tuning. The Raymond Watch in the slow motion video still needs a new Mainspring as it does slip after 7 winds or so. However, it is a well designed machine.


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Most modern movements lift angle is I believe falls around the 48° to 54° so using the preset 52 on a timegrapher will give an accurate measurement of amplitude. Not so with older movement's. It's important to know the appropriate lift angle if we're going to take the information given from the timegrapher seriously. I serviced this old pocket watch a few years ago long before I owned a timegrapher and thought I had everything perfect. The timegrapher tells a different story as regards "Beat error " So they have their uses even on old movement's. The first reading is on the preset 52° The second is at 40° Which is probably about right for this 102 year old Waltham. As can be seen the variation is quite dramatic, with regard amplitude. Though in practical terms this watch is an excellent timekeeper for its period, loosing around 10 to 15 seconds a day.f3560bb81152e1ba8fc9d867e6daa00b.jpg4236b588c308f0dc043a44eccbbfadf6.jpg
8cc3ff42542b1f089f37d6da692254bc.jpg

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Oh and that micro adjuster should be in the middle I must of caught it when opening the back but it's been one those weeks Anyway. Hopefully it shows without the correct tech info regards lift angle you will do just as well studying the swing of the balance regards amplitude than info given by a timegrapher

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The video below tells us how to figure out what lift angle is. I found I couldn't see the red dot although maybe mine wasn't the right shade. So I'm using a different pen image below of the pan it's an interesting highlighting pen. Interesting that the ink is fluid just touching the balance arm a tiny little dot of fluid will appear. So the one image where it circled it's almost invisible. In the other image it's glowing because the key to this is an ultraviolet flashlight. You really need to pick a color that's easy to see and this is very easy to see.

So I don't have my list but at work I've been cataloging pocket watches as I come up on them. I think probably better to compromise to 45° for pocket watch rather than the current 52 for modern wristwatches.

Then I've attached a list of lift angles you'll see even so-called modern wristwatches very from little below 40 to 60 it just depends on the watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xgcck692js

Lift_Angles_Watch__gamma__lift_angle.pdf

la3.JPG

la2.JPG

la1.JPG

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That's really great stuff. I will save info in Pdf. I've tried prior to set the balance rotation to 180° and adjust timegrapher. Not being the brightest flame in the fire, never thought to mark wheel arm and use ultra Violet light. Couldn't really see what was going on. Many thanks. This is why I really like the forum, you can learn so much and useful tips

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Oh and that micro adjuster should be in the middle I must of caught it when opening the back but it's been one those weeks Anyway. Hopefully it shows without the correct tech info regards lift angle you will do just as well studying the swing of the balance regards amplitude than info given by a timegrapher

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Again, great technical information.


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I too have saved this information. I use slow motion video mode on the iPhone, set at the highest frame rate and that allows me to see the balance without an issue. His complete swing was 370 degrees in one direction, but he stated that his amplitude was 180, so I am confused. Not many balances rotate more than 360 degrees, so how does one get an amplitude of 270? You would only get 180, which the books say is a crappy amplitude.


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No if you watch the video again. The balance rotates to 180° and reverses 180°. When I've tried this I'm probably near but with a mark and ultra Violet light you should be able to be precise.i evaluated my Waltham at 40 lift angle but it could be more.

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No if you watch the video again. The balance rotates to 180° and reverses 180°. When I've tried this I'm probably near but with a mark and ultra Violet light you should be able to be precise.i evaluated my Waltham at 40 lift angle but it could be more.

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If you watch the red dot, it rotates a full 360 degrees and then back again a full 360 degrees. I don't get where you are only seeing a 180 degree rotation.


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I only see 180°. Take the red dot as the central point of rotation. It oscillates 180° returns to its central point and reverses 180°

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That's my problem. I am taking the red dot when it stops and then watching it rotate 360 degrees in the opposite direction. I will do more reading, but still confused. MARK needs to help:)


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4 hours ago, jdrichard said:

The lift angle can be calculated as the angle created by the banking pins to the centre of the balance staff. Given that the watch is perfectly set up.

I've attached an image out of one of the tech manuals. It doesn't look like lift angle exactly corresponds to the location of the banking pins.

So sometimes it helps to have more references so PDF attached. This is another timing machine that more than likely none of us have. Pages 9 through 11 cover what were interested in. So page 11 has a feature unique to this timing machine. But for us it does show what happens if the waveform isn't right numerically you can end up with the wrong results. The most common time of seem this is Chinese machines with super a low amplitude. It thinks it's twice as high because it's reading off the wrong part of the waveform.

http://www.greinervibrograf.com/appl/file.php?id=231

liftangle.JPG

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@jdrichard 

I think I know where you missed it. You say 270degrees in one direction and 270 in the other (again, I am referring to the OP video), hence the 270deg amplitude. But the amplitude is only half of that as you calculate it from the rest position (impulse jewel in-between the pallet fork) to one direction or the other.

Like the sine wave - it oscilates between A and -A.

LA.JPG

 

About he lift angle, it is not as you defined it, but:

LA1.JPG

 

 

I attach the full document from witschi

 

Witschi Timegraph - Training Course.pdf

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@jdrichard 

I think I know where you missed it. You say 270degrees in one direction and 270 in the other (again, I am referring to the OP video), hence the 270deg amplitude. But the amplitude is only half of that as you calculate it from the rest position (impulse jewel in-between the pallet fork) to one direction or the other.

Like the sine wave - it oscilates between A and -A.

LA.JPG

 

About he lift angle, it is not as you defined it, but:

LA1.JPG

 

 

I attach the full document from witschi

 

Witschi Timegraph - Training Course.pdf


Thanks again for the info. So if I can get the watch to swing a full 360 deg in one direction , then that is a 180 deg amplitude which is poor? And I have been striving for poor:)

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OK, I now get it. What a great resource and explanation. I have been totally focusing on repair, with emphasis on jeweling so I have really ignored regulating the pocket watches I have repaired. I have however serviced a 1974 Squale Diver over Xmas, and it accidentally is running perfectly. I have also serviced a 7750 but still has a Crown issue. Again not focusing on regulating. Thanks for the resource. I am using an Android app for regulating watches. Not sure if this is ok? Tic-o-print.

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@jdrichard 

I think I know where you missed it. You say 270degrees in one direction and 270 in the other (again, I am referring to the OP video), hence the 270deg amplitude. But the amplitude is only half of that as you calculate it from the rest position (impulse jewel in-between the pallet fork) to one direction or the other.

Like the sine wave - it oscilates between A and -A.

LA.JPG

 

About he lift angle, it is not as you defined it, but:

LA1.JPG

 

 

I attach the full document from witschi

 

Witschi Timegraph - Training Course.pdf


OK, I now get it. What a great resource and explanation. I have been totally focusing on repair, with emphasis on jeweling so I have really ignored regulating the pocket watches I have repaired. I have however serviced a 1974 Squale Diver over Xmas, and it accidentally is running perfectly. I have also serviced a 7750 but still has a Crown issue. Again not focusing on regulating. Thanks for the resource. I am using an Android app for regulating watches. Not sure if this is ok? Tic-o-print.

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OK, I now get it. What a great resource and explanation. I have been totally focusing on repair, with emphasis on jeweling so I have really ignored regulating the pocket watches I have repaired. I have however serviced a 1974 Squale Diver over Xmas, and it accidentally is running perfectly. I have also serviced a 7750 but still has a Crown issue. Again not focusing on regulating. Thanks for the resource. I am using an Android app for regulating watches. Not sure if this is ok? Tic-o-print.

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You've done a great job don't get to preoccupied with amplitude on old pocket watches. I was told by a friend with far more knowledge than me on Walthams that 270° swing was pretty much the factory standard ? of the day and an amplitude of 180 isn't that bad for these old watches. As said + or - a few minutes a day on these time pieces is common.
Checking for variation of amplitude in different positions is very useful, assessing the condition of the movement.
Rates of amplitude, well different manufacturers have different ideas.
The Swiss tend to favour higher rates of amplitude then their Japanese counterparts in the belief of greater accuracy of timekeeping. It comes at a cost normally. With the potential of higher rates of wear and more frequent servicing.
Now let's consider the virtual indestructible Seiko 7s26 and the abuse this movement can take before stopping.
Factory Fresh you can expect an amplitude in its optimum position of around 260 and dropping to no less than 240 in all other positions. As said that's brand new.



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It must be the 700 series. I believe the 7s26 was introduced in 1996. The first numbers on your case back should tell you the movement ie.. 7009A- ????

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It is the original cushion case Diver that everyone wants and that they reissued last year.


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