Landeron 248

[chadders1966]

Hi

I decided to buy myself a Landeron 248 chronograph (Swiss Emperor, same model Will has posted about previously). It will be my first chronograph disassembly so I want to take my time. I have watched George Clarksons videos on this model which are very helpful, but would still like to refer to a written guide/manual if anybody knows of one.

In general the watch works well. It keeps consistent time but is fast by about 15 minutes a day. All the chronograph functions work properly. I have not started disassembly yet but on taking the back of there is one immediate problem, both the hole and cap jewel on the balance are missing. If somebody can tell me the dimensions of these, or another movement which has the same size jewels, I can try and source some replacements.

I did find this document (http://watchguy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Le-Landeron-48.pdf) which refers to various eccentrics which should be left alone on the Landeron 48. I assume they are similar/the same on the 248. Indeed George refers to a couple of them on his videos. It is this type of thing I want to clarify before I disassemble. Thanks

Stephen

[Brian3]

Hi Stephen, the eccentric screws are for the final adjustment of the chronograph, sure, you don't touch them during disassembly, they'll just go around and around anyway, only an offset screw, but you will adjust them once you have reassembled and lubricated the watch, used to adjust tooth depthing and correct minute recorder position etc.

The fine adjustments of a chrono after service are almost as important as the service itself, incorrect toothdepthing will either not have the chrono run at all or stop the watch completely when it's switched on.

Brian

[chadders1966]

Brian

Thanks for the input, I'll file it away for future reference. As it stands I won't be able to do much of anything unless I can replace the missing jewels. Hopefully someone might have some information or a manual. I don't want to have to buy another chronograph movement to replace two jewels, if I have the size I can just replace them.

Stephen

[ro63rto]

Parts list etc

http://tech.gleaveandco.com/tech-sheets/landeron/Landeron%20187.pdf


http://tech.gleaveandco.com/tech-sheets/landeron/Landeron%20187%20%282%29.pdf

[Marc]

What kind of jewel setting is it? For instance Cousins list balances for ordinary (non shock protected), shock proof, and Super shock-resist. I'm guessing that it has some form of shock protection since the hole jewel is missing, so not a friction fit jewel, but this is a guess.

If shock proof then the next question is which system (Incabloc, KIF, etc).

A photograph of the setting that is complete may help to identify the type of setting that you need, which will considerably narrow down the search for the correct part.

[Marc]

1269_Incabloc By Factory - Landeron, Lavina.pdf

Assuming Incabloc the above should help with part numbers just leaving you a supplier to find.

http://www.incabloc.ch/en/systeme_incabloc.php

The link may also help with terminology.

[chadders1966]

Thanks guys, good to get the parts list Roberto. Marc, I'm assuming Incabloc as it has the spring still in place. I've not taken it apart yet as I wanted to learn a bit more first so I haven't seen the plate jewel, but I think it's a fair assumption. I'm going to go ahead and order the upper cap jewel for the 48 which Cousins list. Thanks for your help.

Stephen

[StuartBaker104]

This should help you. There will be minor differences, but much in common

http://shop.joseph-watches.com/joseph/members/FMPro?-db=joseph_archive.fp5&-lay=web&-format=esemblo_details.html&kategorie=esemblograf&-recid=12607829&-token=001&-find

This page tells you the part interchangeability... just click on each part to see where else it is used

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=LAN_248

 

[chadders1966]

Stuart

Thanks for that, more useful information for me to study. I had just remembered the  Jules Borel database thanks, it is a really useful resource. I'm quite happy to try the  part from Cousins first as it is inexpensive, but I may go back to this if it doesn't work.

Stephen

[chadders1966]

I've had to go back to the drawing board with this as the part I was thinking of at Cousins wasn't the right one. Borel list the part as upper Incabloc shock unit 100.11.360.11 and it is available in a few other movements, mainly Landeron, Venus and Unitas.

Does anyone know of anywhere that sells these parts direct? Borel do, but even if I could open an account it would end up costing quite a bit just for a jewel. I've searched EBay for the various Unitas calibres and there are a couple of possibilities, but again it mostly looks like costing £50 or more just to get this jewel.

I've emailed Scotchwatch and Oldswisswatches. Can anyone think of anywhere else I could try to get this part without costing too much? Thanks

Stephen

[StuartBaker104]

Have you tried calling Gleave and co in Clerkenwell?

[Marc]

You could give John Senior a try at;

http://obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/

Even if he doesn't list the parts it's worth emailing him as he has loads of stuff on top of what he has on the web site.

[Cad101]

I agree with Marc try John he's helped me with very obscure parts before and his prices are very reasonable.

[chadders1966]

Thanks all, very helpful. I'll give these a try as well.

[chadders1966]

Just thought I'd update on this regarding responses. Gleave & Co. still haven't got back to me, obsoletewatchandclockparts responded quickly but doesn't have it, Scotchwatch and Oldswisswatches both have the part, Oldswisswatches being a lot cheaper. However it's now 3 days since I paid and it's still not been posted - I've been told it will be sent by Monday. Unfortunately I am not a patient person, but I will have to learn to be.

Stephen

[Delroyb]

If you're still stuck on sizes I have a 248 I  bits at the moment. I can measure the balance jewel tomorrow if needs be.

[chadders1966]

Thanks very much for the offer, but I have the correct part (hopefully!) on order. I might get back to you though if I have a problem.

Stephen

[chadders1966]

I finally got got around to putting this together today when this happened:

 

It's the hammer spring - part 2850 - and I noticed beforehand it looked slightly bent. It was obviously weakened and putting pressure back on caused this fracture. I am assuming that as this part is under pressure it is not repairable, but just thought I'd ask first if anyone thinks there is anything I can do.

It's frustrating as this was the last part assembled before testing. Looks like I am back to searching for parts again - at least this time I know what for :).

Stephen

[GeorgeClarkson]

Hi Stephen, glad you found My videos helpful in some way. Since you already sourced the jewel I'll jump to the next issue: the hammer jumper/spring.

Honestly I've never seen a spring snap like that, and the only solution is replacement, unfortunately.

On eBay you will find many that sell incomete movements for under 80€ so I would search for the occasion and grab it, you will have some spare parts aside just in case, which is always good. I bought some time ago a lot of 5 incomete movements, from which I then managed to fix 3 complete watches, spending 50€. Not bad...

The PDF linked above with the compatibility chcart amongst model numbers will be really helpful. And should you still need them, I got the service manuals in PDF too for almost all models of Landeron movements.

[Marc]

@chadders1966

whilst searching for a replacement, just for fun why not try and make one.

You need some decent springy high carbon steel of about the right thickness, slightly thicker is good, something like an old (but decent quality) hacksaw blade for instance or a piece of old clock main spring. Heat it to a bright cherry red and then let it cool slowly to anneal it so that it can be worked.

Next get it to the right thickness by working it on 400 grit wet/dry paper on a sheet of glass using an old champagne cork to hold it flat and keep your fingers out of the way. Work both sides and check the thickness often.

Then drill the holes, one for the screw and two for locating dowels.

Now superglue the broken pieces to the stock so that the locating dowels are in the holes and the screw hole lines up. Using this template you can cut and file to shape.

Once you're happy, remove the template and carefully tidy up the finish, apply any chamfering or counter sinking. It might also be wise to test fit at this stage too although you don't have any locating dowels.

Now bind the whole thing in soft iron wire in preparation for hardening. This helps to keep the heating even and reduces the risk of warping. Heat to a bright cherry red again but this time cool it quickly by quenching it in vegetable oil (some people also use brine).

Unwrap it and check that it hasn't distorted. Also test it for hardness using a file, it should be glass hard at this stage. If all is well then clean at least one side to a bright finish so that you can see the tempering colours.

Now temper it by placing it on a piece of brass sheet (the thicker it is the more evenly it will heat) over a spirit lamp and watch closely for the tempering colours to appear. The colours start with a very pale straw colour which gradually darkens and then goes to a light blue which then darkens. You want to make sure that the process happens evenly over the whole surface and you are aiming for a mid to dark blue. Once you have got that, quench the part in water.

You can now polish the part back to bright, or even leave it blue depending on the aesthetic effect you want.

For the locating dowels find yourself a sewing needle of the right diameter. Anneal it as above, and cut two pieces, slightly longer than you need. Install in the dowel holes in the spring and rivet in place. Now carefully grind to the correct length.

Install the spring in the movement, sit back, and admire your handiwork over a glass of something suitable.

Just a thought...

[chadders1966]

Thanks for the quick response guys. George, your information so far has been very helpful. I think you are right that I might as well buy the whole movement for parts as keep buying spares - I could do with some new hands and pushers anyway.

Marc thanks very much for providing such detailed instructions. Although I don't really need to make a replacement for this part now, I'm sure at some point I will need to so I am going to give it a go and see how long it takes me :)! Cheers.

Stephen

 

[Geo]

I like it Mark!

[GeorgeClarkson]

Stephen, just keep an eye on the bay for something suitable, there are plenty, but prices are rising...

[GeorgeClarkson]

Check had s article: 222373790740, can't see if the jumper is thee, but you can ask.

[GeorgeClarkson]

OK forget that auction, it is a 48 and not compatible. Sorry my bad.