Old Smiths Diver Style Watch

[entropy]

I completely fell in love with this watch - so much so I've been counting down since I first seen it.. It's a non runner and the auction only just ended. I can't wait for it to get here!

 

Now I'm looking for advice of what to do with it. Also any info anyone has on it's history would be greatly appreciated.. I believe it was made in Swansea?  

Edited November 9, 2014 by entropy

[bobm12]

Hi entropy,

 

We need to find out why it doesn't run. Mainspring and barrel ok? friction washer/foil present under dial? Do the balance wheel and pallet fork look ok? No pivots broken or bent? Wheels and pinions in good order? end shakes ok? Jewels not cracked or broken?...there are many things that may be the issue including dirt and old oil. I believe you may want to give it a real good servicing and while at it a very good inspection...

 

It is a nice watch, congratulations on your new acquisition!

[entropy]

Hi Bob12,

 

These are the photos that were on the auction - I don't have it with me just yet.. It should be with me midweek. I have unearthed some info on it: It seems to be from the Anglo-Celtic Watch Co (existed from 1946-1980 in south wales) After spending all evening researching this, I have only found 1 other the same, but it looked in poorer cosmetic condition. I don't think this one will have anything done to the dials/hands. Maybe the crystal will be renewed or polished. It'd be nice to get it working though.

 

It looks a simple enough movement to work on - But I will be leaving it until I get some dismantling experience on an old Seiko 5 I ordered to practice on.  

[anilv]

Nice..the bezel looks in good shape.

 

These movements have quite a 'powerful' mainspring to compensate for the lack of jewels.. when running you can usually hear it clear across the room at night!

 

As a result of the lack of jewels you may find some of the pivot holes worn. You also have to inspect the pins of the lever (no jewels) carefully. It may need to be re-pinned but you may be able to bend it a bit  if the wear is no too much. The escape wheels also wear.

 

Judging by the overall condition I would say that this watch was worn for a few years and then stopped working and was put away in a drawer where it spent the last 20-30years. The reason I say this....

- The afore mentioned bezel... it looks printed on aluminium.. This would not last long in the real world and you would see significant wear with 2-3 years daily wear.

- Case does not look like stainless steel. SS was a big deal in the old days and you would usually see it mentioned on the caseback. Plated base metal cases will usually show wear under the lugs and also in the area where your fingers would rub as you're winding the watch if the watch has been used for some time. In this case I would say its a plated case with minimal wear. Check inside the case back if there is any marking that says its stainless steel.

- Such big lume areas on the hands do not last long as they tend to break/flake off with normal use.

 

This watch is unusual (in a good way) in that it has a full bridge for the balance instead of a 'cock' which you see on most watches. This is usually found on higher quality watches as it lends itself to better timekeeping. A bit fiddly to install if you're new to this game.

 

Overall I would say it is a good buy. Pin-lever watches are underated but they are important part of watch-making history and its hard to find one that is in nice condition cosmetically as most watch collectors did not place much value on them and a lot of them have been tossed out.!

 

Keep us updated!

Anil

[clockboy]

If the pivot holes are worn I would not know how to repair. With clocks this is a common fault mainly with American & English clocks. The repair is to re-bush the pivot holes but I doubt if this was an option with a watch movement.

[entropy]

Thanks for the info anilv & clockboy. Would little wear to the bezel and case indicate that the pivot holes and pivots could be in good condition? I hope this is the case. The watch should be here with me in the next few days, so I will check it over with a high powered loupe to see if can see anything obvious. I will get the macro lens out and take some better quality, closer shots too.

 

Although this is clearly a relatively simple movement, I may contact Mark to service it. I am confident I could dismantle, clean and reassemble it, but my fault finding and lubricating knowledge isn't there yet. I can't find any servicing info for this 512 movement, and to be honest, I wouldn't know which oils to use, and where to use them. I only managed to find one watch the same as this after spending hours searching. It had lume missing on the hands, and the bezel was not in good shape - This confirms your assessment. If the cost is reasonable to have it serviced, then i'll probably leave it in more capable hands. Either that, or it will sit as-is until I feel confident enough to start on it.

 

I will be back with more info when it arrives. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. It's greatly appreciated.    

[Blacklab]

Give it a go, if you get on OK with your Seiko you wont have too much trouble with this. Take photos at each stage, a mobile phone camera is ideal. You will probably find that it just needs a good clean and oil to make it happy, I wouldn't expect it to keep perfect time but it should work. I have a couple of old Ingersoll Triumphs (same as the Smiths Empires), similar very basic movements - the cheap quartz of their day.

 

You're right about the noise Anil, its a bit like having your Grans old mantelpiece clock strapped to your wrist. You certainly know they are running.

[anilv]

Dear Entropy,

 

The good condition could be a double edged sword..it could be due to two reasons...

 

1.. the owner bought it new and used it for a while and then put it away safely..! or

2.. He dropped it early on in its life and decided to get a new one instead of repairing it.

 

Anil

[entropy]

Yes that makes sense Anil - We'll wait and see.  

[daz]

A great buy, I was also watching this auction, these do not come around that often and it's the first one I have seen. The ref works puts this at production date of 1971 and the price (retail) at £5.07 in 1971. However it is listed as a boys watch (there maybe another that I have missed though)

A Great watch though

Darren

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[noirrac1j]

Hello Entropy,

Welcome to the forum. This is a nice looking watch indeed. I can tell you as someone that began trying out watchmaking with pin-levers that they are simple, but not easy to put back together because they simply lack the level of finish of better made movements. Now, that said, I love pin-levers and have worked on several types from the big makers at the time: Ebauche Bettlach (EB), Baumgartner, (BFG) and Brac, but I have not worked on an English pin lever. They are unusual and, honestly, some of them keep time almost as well as my vintage Omegas--that is my reference point for quality. If you have good tools and magnification, then do what some of the other members have suggested. Take a picture at every step and follow them backwards to reassemble. I will suggest you keep a close eye not just on the drive wheels, but also on the length of screws as they may look similar to one another. I once put back a watch and one of the screws was slighty longer than the other two and it was rubbing against the barrel. It finally discovered it after tearing the watch apart again and noticing the very slight differece between three screws that held the calendar wheel in place. Another suggesstion I will make is to be very careful with the hairspring/balance. If you mess that up you will have a watch that will not run, or it will run very fast--this has happened to me three times. I've never had a watch run slow! The problem is that even though you may be able to find a replacement complete balance, it will be difficult to replace on the old balance cock/regulator because of the stud used to secure instead of a screw as in higher quality movements. I have ruined brand new hairsprings because the stud requires steady pressure to stay put AND it has to be at a right angle to the axis of rotation AND the hairspring MUST be poised or the impulse finger will not drive the pallet properly, and the watch will not run. This is an area where I have not seen any videos demonstrating how to do this. In any case, give it a shot....if at any point it seems too daunting, stop and put the watch away for another time. I am also sure the wonderful members of the forum will provide help and guidance if you ask...myself included. Good luck!

 

JC

Edited November 12, 2014 by noirrac1j

[entropy]

Thanks Daz, I can't find any info on it at all. I can't find any technical info on the movement regarding servicing either, and I don't have the knowledge to know what I should use and where to use it. Do you have any links to info on this watch?

 

Noirrac1j, thank you for the warm welcome. With this watch I may be leaving it to experienced hands - I love it that much, I'd hate to pull off a beginner mistake on it. Maybe if I had technical/servicing info to follow and more experience I'd do it myself. For now though, I have fixed the problem with the magnetised hairspring on my practice Seiko 5 7009A movement. The satisfaction from that alone was great! Now it is running correctly, it's time to completely dismantle it and practice lubrication. Even though this is probably way more complicated than the Smiths cal 512 movement - At least I have a lot of reference info to follow.

 

Interestingly, a light rotation on the balance wheel made it start ticking. So it actually mechanically works. It stopped shortly after, it looked a little lazy too while it ran. This is leading me to believe that it's just in need of a full clean and re-oiling. You're right, it's a ticker alright! :)   

[daz]

Hi entropy

So sorry about the extremely late reply been working a lot (lorry driver) so not had a chance to get on

There is very little info about Smiths around as no records were kept after they finished production, they had two sites one being in Wales and the other in Cheltenham which was where all the better jewelled movements were made. There is a reference work by the author Barrie smith (which is a book made up of data and images from sales leaflets and adverts) and there is a guy who specialises in smiths under Smithswatches (should come up on a Google search) he maybe able to help or shed some more light for you...

Hope this helps entropy

Best wishes

Darren

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[entropy]

_{Well it's been some time since I was last here. Work has been busy.}

 

_{Update on this watch: Just the other day I took another look at it. It ran for a minute or so when I manipulated the balance wheel. Everything looked in order from what I could see, so I set about removing the balance bridge and removed the balance. I cleaned up the bottom pivot hole, oiled it with a little anchor oil. Then I oiled the jewel. Reinstalled it and it fired up straight away. This was last night at 9pm. I synced the time to my iphone and just compared it 30 or so minutes ago. It's still spot on to the minute after over 24 hrs. Quite surprising really for such an old watch! I'm over the moon it's working. I kind of wish I'd stripped it completely to clean and oil it. I just ordered a new strap for it, black with orange stitching.}

[Geo]

Good to hear from you again. That's great that you managed to get it up and running and keeping time. :)

It would still be a good idea to give it a thorough clean down the line sometime, as oiling a watch without cleaning can make old oil that has turned to varnish swell and grip pivots. It's happened to me in the past.

[entropy]

Yes that will be next. I think the only thing I'm in need of to complete it, is an ultrasonic cleaner and parts baskets. I'm looking into it today :)

Edited May 25, 2015 by entropy