Hi From Newcastle Uk

[entropy]

Hi Bob,

 

I will get some pictures done when it gets here. Thanks for the info, it's much appreciated

[entropy]

The Seiko 5 arrived today. It has 7009-3140 A on the case back. I think this makes it a 7009A movement? I will be opening it up soon.

 

I don't think I need the special Seiko tool for this movement. If it does need one, I will make one.

Edited November 11, 2014 by entropy

[entropy]

The watch arrived today. It is a 7009A movement from October 1990 (at least I think it's 1990)

 

As soon as I opened the case back I could see that the plastic outer movement 'retaining ring' was missing. I popped the crown/stem out and removed the movement. The watch has clearly had something done to it in the past, under the loupe I could see a tiny scratch mark where the hands had been removed in the past (doesn't matter, it's only for practice anyway) I removed the hands and dial and started to take a closer look at the movement with a 10X loupe. Oddly, the day and date both work now, even though I've not done anything to them.  

 

I found the problem that would cause the watch to run fast - It is a bent hairspring. As you can see in the photo I took on my iphone, it has a kink in the spring. Tomorrow I am working from home, so I'm going to attempt to straighten the hairspring back into alignment. I've got nothing to lose, I have to learn. If I manage to straighten the hairspring, I will put the dial, weight and hands back on and see how it keeps time. I'll make a note of this for when I completely strip, service and reassemble the watch.

 

Well I'll go watch Marks hairspring straightening video again :)

 

Well, that's my first time opening and diagnosing a watch. I'm over the moon!

Edited November 12, 2014 by entropy

[bobm12]

Good job entropy! Let us know how it went! Remember to take lots of pictures so they will guide you through all the steps for disassembly and assembly!

[Geo]

Well done for finding the source of the problem.

I would like to add a word of caution, de-magnetise the watch then clean the spring in lighter fluid or one dip. I suspect that the coils are not bent but are being held together with magnetism or oil. It's hard to tell from the photo.

I may be wrong with my suspicions, but even if you do have to straighten the hairspring, I still recommend doing the above before you start manipulations. Another thing to remember is make sure that the tools you use do not contain any magnetism.

Whatever you do, be as careful as mating hedgehogs!

[Vich]

Just in case, I would check to see if your spring does in fact have an initial bend prior to the coils as some do and this is not a fault.

I feel George is right and it could be that it is just gummy and sticking and one dip could resolve it. Demagnetisation is also relevant as it arises frequently on the forum as the culprit for this sort of fault. A demagnetiser is a valid purchase.

Put watch hair springs into Google and have a quick look at images, if you are lucky there may be one for a Seiko 5.

If there is a kink after the initial bend then that is a different matter. Of course it may transpire that your spring does not have an initial lead in bend at all. I am sorry if I seem to be sliding down the razor blade of life here and not choosing a definitive course but watches are quirky things and research prior to tinkering is geet important

Cheers, Vic

[Geo]

I was working on a Seiko a few months back and I'm almost certain the first part of the coil is slightly offset to allow it to slide through the regulator pins.

[Vich]

Did a trace for seiko 5 and this came up and may be similar to yours but it shows what I was attempting very badly to describe.

Cheers, Vic

[Mark]

I have taken one out of my scrap box and taken a couple of pics for you.

 

You will notice that the hairspring is sticky (the outer coil is touching the next coil in) and this will cause the watch to gain rapidly.

 

 

I took the balance out to give you a reference for the shape, although I can see this one has been played with in the past, it will at least give you an idea.

 

[Mark]

Hold on... Just found another one that has not been fudged in the past. Please ignore the last post.

 

[bobm12]

Excellent pictures Mark and Vic! May I also add that the bend shown is called "dog leg" and that the spring is centered in and cannot touch the regulator pins through which it passes. Just to round an already perfect explanation.

Edited November 12, 2014 by bobm12

[noirrac1j]

Welcome to the forum Lee! Yeah I followed Marks videos the first couple of times I tried disassembly until I go tthe hang of it. I still take pictures along the way for my own reference and also to post. Watchmaking is a great hobby because obviously you can wear the functional end-product! Its a source of pride for me to overhaul a non-working watch and get it working properly again. Plus it saves a LOT of money if you have as many mechanical watches as I do!  Foe cleaning I use pure naptha on everything except the hairspring/balance: for that I use one dip. I started with Moebius because I didn't want to try the cheaper oils, but you'll soon discover that the small vials of oil will probably last a really long time. I first bout the Moebius D5 (microgliss) and 9010 to start and then got the more specific oils later. These two were sufficient for me to start and the watches I did with just these two are fine as of today. Lee I would follow Geo's suggestion of cleaning the hairspring and demagnetizing the watch before attempting to straighten any possible kinks in the hairpsring--Mark makes it look easy, but I assure you it is not!

 

JC

Edited November 12, 2014 by noirrac1j

[entropy]

Thanks again to everyone for the great info & reference photos, and warm welcome. You've all been a great help!

 

I had to work yesterday, so never got a chance to look at the Seiko 5. Yesterday evening before I went to bed, I placed the watch under my compass. Sure enough, the hairspring is magnetised. Judging by the photos me thinking the spring was kinked was probably wrong too, I'll know better when I hopefully get another look at it tomorrow afternoon. It looks like the repair is on hold until I get a demagnetiser and cleaning fluid - For now, I've put it in the naughty corner out of the way of my new tools etc.

 

Another bit of news: The old Smiths diver style watch with the 512 Cal movement arrived yesterday. I'm really surprised - It is in really good condition for the age. It seems to be plated metal, with no wear to the case at all (that I can see). I popped the back off and inspected the movement. It too looks in great condition. I suspect it could be the main spring. However, it is a very small watch, so even though it is a simple enough movement, I think it'll have to wait until I have more practice under my belt before I dismantle it. I'll look to get some photos of it this afternoon.

 

I'm still waiting for my sister to drop off a couple of old mechanical watches she has laying around.. I may take a trip to Tynemouth market this weekend, see if I can pick up some more mechanical movements. At the minute I'm being held back with not having everything needed to work on them properly. Well, I have all of the main tools etc, but the likes of the demagnetiser and a few other things are holding me back.

 

Time to get ready for work.....

Edited November 13, 2014 by entropy

[Vich]

Hello Lee,

Aches and pains so I got up a while ago.

Looks like you have settled in nicely. I tried Tynemouth market once and I hope you have better luck than me. There was some stuff on sale but a lot of new cheap Quartz watches. Mind I was only looking for Bulova so it was a doubtful search. Got some good Veg and pies though !

Cheers,

Vic

[entropy]

I just got the demagnetiser - The hairspring was magnetised (thank you for the advice) I removed the balance cock and demagnetised everything separately. Instantly the spring took a normal appearance with even spacing, and now looks the same as the reference images Mark put up - Thanks Mark :) I popped the dial and hands back on to test, it is now keeping good time and not running super fast as it was before.  

 

My next job is to remove the hands/dial and dismantle this Seiko completely, for servicing practice with Anchor oil and moly grease. I feel more comfortable with this movement, as there is quite a bit of servicing reference material out there to keep me on the right path. As for that lovely little Smiths watch.. Well, it may be a simple movement, but I can't find any servicing/technical info on it, and I don't have the knowledge to know which oils to use and where to use them - To add to this, I don't have the cleaning fluids or ultrasonic cleaners yet, which it would clearly need with it being close to 50 years old.

 

The Seiko movement looks clean as a whistle under a 10X loupe so it'll be good for strip down, oiling and greasing practice.

 

My sister is still dragging her feet with the other practice watches. She can be forgiven having recently moved house.

 

I anticipate next post here will probably be something to do with reassembling the 7009 movement. eek!

 

Thanks to all for their time and information - It is greatly appreciated.

[Geo]

Hi Lee, that's great that it's now working properly. I would suggest you demagnetise the watch a a complete assembly in future. There is far less chance of damaging anything, particularly the balance spring.

[bobm12]

Hi entropy,

 

I normally demagnetize the whole watch while still assembled. I'm new in this area of watchmaking and would like to know if you took any precautions -- or maybe a good way - to demagnetize the hairspring the way you did it (all by itself). It seems to me that sometimes this could be a better practice with some stubborn watches. I have the cheapo demagnetizer, normally found on ebay in blue in which you press a button with the part on a designated area and then you move it away while still pressing the button. Thank you in advance.

[entropy]

Thanks Geo/bob, I did try to demagnetise the movement with the balance cock in place but it didn't seem to work (I think it's maybe because it is just a cheap demagnetiser) The instructions said to press the button for 5 seconds - This didn't seem to work. When I took the balance cock off, I held it inverted with old brass tweezers. This time I held the button down for 10 seconds and moved the demagnetiser slowly away from the balance cock - this done the trick, the hairspring was back in normal shape instantly! I then done the same process with the rest of the movement. I tested it under my compass and it had no effect at all.. Before demagnetising it threw the compass needle out by a good 30 degrees. The next time I do this, I will do the whole watch as you recommend. It makes sense. Thanks again :)

Edited November 18, 2014 by entropy

[Mark]

Hi entropy,

 

I normally demagnetize the whole watch while still assembled. I'm new in this area of watchmaking and would like to know if you took any precautions -- or maybe a good way - to demagnetize the hairspring the way you did it (all by itself). It seems to me that sometimes this could be a better practice with some stubborn watches. I have the cheapo demagnetizer, normally found on ebay in blue in which you press a button with the part on a designated area and then you move it away while still pressing the button. Thank you in advance.

 

If you are going to demagnetise items individually then put the items in a small plastic box.

 

Thanks Geo/bob, I did try to demagnetise the movement with the balance cock in place but it didn't seem to work (I think it's maybe because it is just a cheap demagnetiser) The instructions said to press the button for 5 seconds - This didn't seem to work. When I took the balance cock off, I held it inverted with old brass tweezers. This time I held the button down for 10 seconds and moved the demagnetiser slowly away from the balance cock - this done the trick, the hairspring was back in normal shape instantly! I then done the same process with the rest of the movement. I tested it under my compass and it had no effect at all.. Before demagnetising it threw the compass needle out by a good 30 degrees. The next time I do this, I will do the whole watch as you recommend. It makes sense. Thanks again :)

 

Have you seen my video about dealing with watches gaining time? I demonstrate how to use both the electronic de-magnetiser and the small blue Etic style demag.

 

I am sure you know this but I will say it anyway ;) you can't just hold the item on the machine and press the button on the small Etic style demag - you have to draw the item away whilst holding the button.

If you don't draw away at the same time then you risk magnetising it even worse than before.

 

Same for de-magnetising tweezers and screwdrivers.

[bobm12]

Thank you entropy I think we have the same type of demagnetizer!

 

Thank you Mark, yes, I watched the excellent movie you made! You are right, I always move the items away while using it. The problem with the hairspring is that they are flimsy and I was afraid they with twist out of shape! Now I know better!

 

Bob

[Mark]

The problem with the hairspring is that they are flimsy and I was afraid they with twist out of shape! Now I know better!

 

Bob

 

That's a genuine concern - to solve this just put it in a small plastic parts container, but if we are talking about a balance complete, mounted to the cock then do not risk it, put it on the movement first. If you put a balance complete on the cock in a plastic box and demag it, then you risk the heavy part jumping and distorting or twisting the spring which is a whole new set of problems.

[bobm12]

Thank you Mark, that clarifies the demagnetizing thing! I have a couple of them balance complete I was planning to demagnetize. So, back to the main plate!

 

Bob

[Folkvisor]

Hi entropy et al

Interesting that this is a 7009A. Same Seiko I'm working on. I think I'll need to make a larger bend in the spring. It just won't turn the way it is now so I think there is side pressure. But, in any case, I broke the regulating pin so I'm waiting for a new balance cock replete with all the gizmos. The balance wheel and spring are brand new.

Dave